Night Rider Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 An update I didn't had as much time as I wanted this week, at least I was able to rebuild the relay sockets to exclude this from possible causes. I went for a ride to heat up the engine and discovered the sockets were not the problem. I stopped and measured the voltage on the battery and I think it's quite low: 12.3 at idle, 12.8 at 1200 RPM, I still have to measure at higher RPM's but my meter doesn't have clamps and I got only two hands (will find a victim to twist the throttle tomorrow). I did notice the higher the temperature of the bike, the lower the voltage drops. From what I've read I got exactly the same problem as Buzzard had, I think the grounding will be the key but I will do some additional check like measuring the diodes and ignition switch. The battery was replaced before winter and I then checked the alternator and it was ok, so I'm excluding this from possible causes. Now, you can't see the regulator on my bike, is placed high behind the oil cooler and fuel pump. So may ask my garage to do this if it's too much of a hassle, the rear shock absorber is leaking anyway as well my rear cardan house. Yes it's sure giving me a hard time last 6 months... Still planning to take it to the Alps in two months and hopefully to Mandello in September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 From what I've read I got exactly the same problem as Buzzard had, I think the grounding will be the key but I will do some additional check like measuring the diodes and ignition switch. The battery was replaced before winter and I then checked the alternator and it was ok, so I'm excluding this from possible causes. Check the Diodes and get back to me. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossi46 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/cable/thinwall.php which would be the most suitable cable for the extra earthing? thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Rider Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/cable/thinwall.php which would be the most suitable cable for the extra earthing? thanks Well, since the charging circuit uses a 30 AMP fuse, your grounding cable should at least be able to withstand that current in case when all grounding from the regulator to the frame is lost. So Ref CM4. 56/0.30mm, 4mm2, 39amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Rider Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Ok, last week I did some measuring on the battery. When cold: @idle: 12.5V, @3000RPM: 17V! When hot: @idle: 12.3V, @3000RPM: 13V That's way overcharging at cold, but when hot I couldn't get it to charge to 14V (I think my battery was on the low side also). So I took Roy's advice: measured the diodes (ok), ignition switch couldn't be a problem since the reference voltage doesn't pass through it (battery - headlight switch - regulator on my bike), cleaned all contacts, grounded the regulator and charged the battery. Next cold start voltage at idle was 13V, so no more overcharging anymore. Took my bike for a ride for half an hour and didn't experienced any symptoms yet (no backfiring through the air intake, not being grumpy around 3000 RPM). So I'm being moderate positive at the moment. :-) Will still have to take my bike to the motorway "full throttle" and ride it on smaller roads afterwards to be really convinced. Still experienced one issue when I got back home: the bike sometimes seemed to miss an ignition when idling at traffic lights. Also, at idle, the generator light seems to light up. Not much, just a little bit you probably only would notice at night. Maybe idle RPM is to low (800-1000 RPM), valve clearance? Not convinced this is an the same electrical problem anymore. Will still need to measure the charging voltage when hot, see if it's somewhere near 13-14 volt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Still experienced one issue when I got back home: the bike sometimes seemed to miss an ignition when idling at traffic lights. Also, at idle, the generator light seems to light up. Not much, just a little bit you probably only would notice at night. Maybe idle RPM is to low (800-1000 RPM), valve clearance? Not convinced this is an the same electrical problem anymore. Will still need to measure the charging voltage when hot, see if it's somewhere near 13-14 volt. At 1000 revs the bike is loosing charge, the battery wont go flat but the voltage will drop, the red light is OK. I'm sure the miss at idle is something else, I call it the Italian Sneeze, mine does that too. Opening the valve clearence seemed to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docc Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Also, know if you have the white face Veglia tach it could be reading 300-500 rpm low. So, if your tach shows 1000 rpm this is really 700 (or even 500!). Best to set the idle at an indicated 1500. This will hurt nothing and help charging and oiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vuzzi Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Well here 's something weird (in my opinion at least). I measure 13.7 volt at the battery at any rpm. I checked the diodes and they give +/- 350 mV between the yellow and redgreen wires which is OK as I conclude from previous information. I cleaned the contacts of the wires and went for a ride today. I still had to check the new voltage with the cleaned contacts, so during the ride I took a stop and measured still 13.7 volt. Now here it comes. As it was getting dark I also wanted to know if there was enough voltage left when I put the headlights on. So I turned them on, and to my surprise I now measured 14.6 volts. Does anyone knows how that happens? I assume turning on the head lights causes a voltage drop at the refference, making the regulator increase the voltage to the battery. But how does I read a too high a voltage with the headlonghts off? btw, it's a 1999-2003 electric wiring, and looking at it for 30 minutes or so didn't give me any clues. The then again, I don't know too much about electronics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Well here 's something weird (in my opinion at least). I measure 13.7 volt at the battery at any rpm. I checked the diodes and they give +/- 350 mV between the yellow and redgreen wires which is OK as I conclude from previous information. I cleaned the contacts of the wires and went for a ride today. I still had to check the new voltage with the cleaned contacts, so during the ride I took a stop and measured still 13.7 volt. Roy "That's OK, the regulator is doing it's job" Now here it comes. As it was getting dark I also wanted to know if there was enough voltage left when I put the headlights on. So I turned them on, and to my surprise I now measured 14.6 volts. Roy "I think that's too high" Does anyone knows how that happens? I assume turning on the head lights causes a voltage drop at the refference, making the regulator increase the voltage to the battery. But how does I read a too high a voltage with the headlonghts off? Roy "Yes that's exactly what's happening, now you need to find out where it's being dropped. You should be able to do this without the motor running. Put the positive meter probe on battery + with the negative connected to the red/black wire at the regulator see what you get. Consulting the drawing move the negative lead to each point on the reference circuit eventually you will find a point where it takes a jump. btw, it's a 1999-2003 electric wiring, and looking at it for 30 minutes or so didn't give me any clues. The then again, I don't know too much about electronics Roy "Do you mean this one"? http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif The circuit goes Battery - Fuse 4/5 Fuse 5 - Start relay Start relay - Headlight relay Headlight relay - Regulator I don't think yours goes through the ignition switch but check for sure, unplug the Headlight relay and see if you have 12 V from the 30 contact to chassis with the key Off. Yes is good" "Did you squeeze the relay base sockets to tighten them up"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vuzzi Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 OK, those are some things I can easily check (though I won't have the time today). I think the drawing of the eceltronics is what I have. I had an older version with some wires missing (one from the regulator), and it indicated 1999 - 2003. It's without the catalist. i ll let you know what I fine soon. Thanks so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I think the drawing of the eceltronics is what I have. I had an older version with some wires missing (one from the regulator), and it indicated 1999 - 2003. It's without the catalist. I think it's pretty much the same drawing but do you know it's the right one for your bike? The missing blue wire goes to the generator light. Around 2000 Luigi started wiring the reference through the ignition switch on some bikes so check for voltage at the headlight relay socket withe the key off. (the 30 contact is the large one by itself, it should have power unless the start relay is energized) Other places you might loose voltage would be at the fuse contacts, relay base contacts, relays perhaps but not likely. Try wiggling the relays while watching your meter or swapping the two relays with another pair. You have added a ground strap to your regulator haven't you? Added any other driving lights? One improvement you could make would be to add headlight relays powered from a new fuse at the battery, that would eliminate the load on red/black wire and improve your lights in one go. I would try to fix it this way first because you do have a resistance somewhere that might get worse. Good Luck Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Rider Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Gah! My Gremlin is back It started to get worse the past few days, bike has started to get increasingly grumpy again. This morning in the garage I noticed my headlight was exceptionally bright again and my back light has blown . Measured the voltage on the battery before leaving for work and yep, 17-18V @ 3000RPM Now I wonder, has my ground wire blown (used what I've had in stock, could be too light). Or... I wonder if it has anything to do with the battery. I've put it on the charger while I was working last time. Maybe the regulator is broken, doesn't charge as it should. And starts overcharging when the battery voltage drops. My only logical explanation at the moment. Plan: I will keep riding it and see if it gets worse (probably), take out the battery and put it on the charger again. See if that solves anything. A question: if you turn on the ignition switch, should the generator light be lit? My doesn't when cold. If I ride my bike for a while until it is getting grumpy again, switch off the engine and switch the ignition switch back on again it light up very clear. After I've started the engine, it's back out (as it is should be). I find that weird. My opinion is that it should be lit anytime the engine isn't running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luhbo Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 Take the regulator and keep it in your (wife's) oven at 100/120°C for at least 1 hour. It worked for mine, once. Alas the gen. light still works only after it's own rules BTW, a regulator like your's (17V) will ruin not only the bulbs on your bike but also the not so cheap battery. You better check for any incontinencies inside the tray, below the battery. Hubert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Rider Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 Take the regulator and keep it in your (wife's) oven at 100/120°C for at least 1 hour. It worked for mine, once. Hehe, I wonder how you came to that idea. You probably re-soldered a broken connection that way I guess. By the way, I tried switching the headlight off and on, like Vuzzi did, but that didn't changed a thing. (It shouldn't according to my wiring diagram.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi_Roy Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 It started to get worse the past few days, bike has started to get increasingly grumpy again. This morning in the garage I noticed my headlight was exceptionally bright again and my back light has blown . Measured the voltage on the battery before leaving for work and yep, 17-18V @ 3000RPM A question: if you turn on the ignition switch, should the generator light be lit? My doesn't when cold. If I ride my bike for a while until it is getting grumpy again, switch off the engine and switch the ignition switch back on again it light up very clear. After I've started the engine, it's back out (as it is should be). I find that weird. My opinion is that it should be lit anytime the engine isn't running. When your battery is reading high try reading between the regulator frame and the black reference wire, I think you will find it at nominal 14 Volts. Then measure between battery + and the reference wire, you will find the difference. Of course if you do see 17 Volts between reference and the regulator case it points to a bad regulator. The generator light (assuming it has a good lamp) should come on any time the key is on without the motor running, your symptoms tell me you are either loosing the power on the red/black wire from the headlight relay or you have no ground at all on the regulator. Actually reading back over your first post you mentioned the strange behaviour, sorry I missed that, two different problems in one thread is messing with my head A high Voltage at the battery will cause the ECU to shut down. Remember, if the regulator can't tell what the battery Voltage is, it can't possibly control it, simple as that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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