My electrical gremlings

[luhbo]

...

Hehe, I wonder how you came to that idea. ...

 

Easy. Careful observation. We do this with dull bread, and somehow each time the bread comes out nearly as crisp as it was the day before. Works with regulators, too. At least in case you're lucky.

[Kiwi_Roy]

 

By the way, I tried switching the headlight off and on, like Vuzzi did, but that didn't changed a thing. (It shouldn't according to my wiring diagram.)

The headlight loads up the circuit causing voltage drop which makes the regulator think "hello, I need to charge the battery"

There should be no Voltage drop between the battery Positive terminal and the black wire at the regulator. Any drop will be added back to the battery until the regulator sees ~14 Volts.

[Night Rider]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I've meant that the regulator keeps overcharging, no voltage change when the headlight is turned on or off.

 

I've been studying the regulator schematics you've send me Roy, I think I finally fully understand how the regulator works.

It may have been 20 years ago that I've had some basic electronics in school. ;-)

 

Going to pull out the bullet connector of the reference wire a bit so I can measure between it and the regulator body.

If I understand correctly:

 

If the voltage is 14 the high output should be "normal" because the regulator thinks it's fine.

If it's less, the high output is normal too and the regulator is putting out as much it can.

However, if it's higher the regulator is faulty because it should have reduced the voltage to 14V. ;-)

If the regulator turns out to be fine it must be something causing a voltage drop in the reference wire (or bad grounding).

 

I still highly suspects the regulator, because I've ran another grounding wire, rebuild the relay sockets and cleaned all contact points.

Also, when cold the bike is way overcharging and the generator light never lights up. When it's hot there is not charging on the battery anymore (just checked it). But the generator light up when you turn of the engine or at idle (which is normal I assume at that 800 RPM). Yes, it seems like there is no grounding at all, but I've run another grounding wire and there was already a wire running from the regulator to the battery negative.

 

(But I will do voltage regulator on the reference wire to be 100% sure )

 

I did found out that it's not the ECU shutting down that makes the bike act grumpy. Because it's only overcharging when cold, and then the bike runs fine. Later on it stops charging making the bike drain the battery. (Luckilly it was not the cheapest one). Like docc said:

 

A weak battery is trouble for these systems. Look for battery voltage 12.7-12.84 and charging over 14 volts.

 

That's why it ran fine after I ran another ground wire: probably not because of the wire, but because the battery was fully charged again. I'm still puzzled why the voltage dropped to normal values then, and not anymore.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I've meant that the regulator keeps overcharging, no voltage change when the headlight is turned on or off.

 

I've been studying the regulator schematics you've send me Roy, I think I finally fully understand how the regulator works.

It may have been 20 years ago that I've had some basic electronics in school. ;-)

 

Going to pull out the bullet connector of the reference wire a bit so I can measure between it and the regulator body.

If I understand correctly:

 

If the voltage is 14 the high output should be "normal" because the regulator thinks it's fine.

If it's less, the high output is normal too and the regulator is putting out as much it can.

However, if it's higher the regulator is faulty because it should have reduced the voltage to 14V. ;-)

If the regulator turns out to be fine it must be something causing a voltage drop in the reference wire (or bad grounding).

 

I still highly suspects the regulator, because I've ran another grounding wire, rebuild the relay sockets and cleaned all contact points.

Also, when cold the bike is way overcharging and the generator light never lights up. When it's hot there is not charging on the battery anymore (just checked it). But the generator light up when you turn of the engine or at idle (which is normal I assume at that 800 RPM). Yes, it seems like there is no grounding at all, but I've run another grounding wire and there was already a wire running from the regulator to the battery negative.

 

(But I will do voltage regulator on the reference wire to be 100% sure )

 

I did found out that it's not the ECU shutting down that makes the bike act grumpy. Because it's only overcharging when cold, and then the bike runs fine. Later on it stops charging making the bike drain the battery. (Luckilly it was not the cheapest one). Like docc said:

 

A weak battery is trouble for these systems. Look for battery voltage 12.7-12.84 and charging over 14 volts.

 

That's why it ran fine after I ran another ground wire: probably not because of the wire, but because the battery was fully charged again. I'm still puzzled why the voltage dropped to normal values then, and not anymore.

 

Yes, you are right on all 4 points, the regulator at least the one I have regulates at 13.9 Volts, anything over that it starts turning off the SCRs

 

When you measure the Voltage between regulator Black and the case it should be ~14Volts

Between the case and an engine bolt should be 0.0 Volts

Between battery positive and black wire should be quite low, I suspect

perhaps a little more with the headlight on.

If you have a suitable ammeter you could connect it in series with the red wires from the regulator.

 

Re the ground wire, my bike had one of those too, a tiny wire about 20 gauge, totally useless when you consider the current can be upwards of 30 Amps. I added a #12 bolted to one of the fins and run to a timing cover bolt, I'm not sugesting you have to do that but at least make sure your ground has a good connection to the case by filing it to remove any Oxide and add a bit of grease to stop it oxidizing. To add to the problem the mounting bracket the regulator is bolted to is not part of the chassis, it's a small bracket held on by the horn mounting bolts, Luigi really screwed up on that one, so run your ground around that also.

 

Re the generator light, if it's working it should always come on when you turn the key on, if it doesn't that points also to loss of reference voltage, it recieves power from the same red/black wire that supplies voltage reference so you would assume that when it doesn't operate you don't have Voltage reference either or it could be too low to light the lamp but just enough to turn the regulator on hard. Does the oil pressure light come on?

If you refer to the schematic the reference voltage turns on Q3 to ground the light and pulses from the alternator turn Q3 off again.

Funny that your light doesn't work then comes back after you turn it off and on again, could that somehow point to the ignition switch? Headlight relay not picking up for instance?, next time it happens check that your headlight goes. I think if you can find out why the generator light doesn't come on you may also solve the overcharging issue if you are testing ground the white wire for a second to test the lamp first if it doesn't go you have a problem with the light or no reference. (bear in mind the lights are junk so it could be a faulty lamp holder, thats why you test it first)

 

I think at this stage I would be riding with a multimeter strapped to the tank connected to various points e.g Battery + to ground, Regulator black to ground, battery + to regulator black.

BTW the red/black wire does branch off just as shown in the diagrams, when I was troubleshooting mine I opened up the loom sure enough I found wires twisted together and soldered, very well done though so I wouldn't worry on that score.

 

It might just be your regulator is shot but don't give up on it yet until you have taken a few readings. I would start by monitoring the reference to case I think make sure you always see 12V+ when you turn the key on and it never goes beyond nominal 14

Let me know

Roy

p.s. I have a 2001 V11 Sport also, a Green one

Edited May 25, 2011 by Kiwi_Roy

[Chuck]

Roy, FWIW, on my Scura and Darth Quota before that, the generator light just seems to come on or not because of some vagaries in phases of the moon. Just sayin. As near as I can tell, when the light comes on, it means the bulb isn't burnt out.. both bikes were exactly the same..unpredictable.

[luhbo]

The light is rather senseless anyway. today, in heavy rain, and probably for the next few days, it was on 'till 3000. Never mind, voltage is ok nevertheless. A nailed 14.1.

Others are coming without that light right from the drawing board.

 

hubert

[Kiwi_Roy]

The light is rather senseless anyway. today, in heavy rain, and probably for the next few days, it was on 'till 3000. Never mind, voltage is ok nevertheless. A nailed 14.1.

Others are coming without that light right from the drawing board.

 

hubert

If you have an LED lamp it's quite possible for it to light in wet weather however I wouldn't expect an incandescent to do the same. Provided the lamp is OK it should come on without the engine running and go off once it starts. I have found a regulator with open circuit in the light wire (39 Ohm resistor burnt out, I suspect a shorted lampholder caused this) however it still regulates fine, operating the light is a seperate task.

 

cct attached

Regulator Schematic - With Notes.pdf

[Night Rider]

Others are coming without that light right from the drawing board.

 

They also have a different regulator

 

In the past, the warning lights were always a big mystery for me. You would never know which would come on after turning the ignition switch. Could be both, none, or either one of them. I've had oil pressure switch replaced and that solved the mystery of that lamp. Now it's only the generator light left. But I guess that mystery will solve itself also when I got my electrical problems fully solved ;-)

[Night Rider]

Ok, an update.

 

I have replaced my regulator and have been driving my bike for a few weeks and still am amazed where suddenly all that power and torque comes from. :-) Charging voltage is how it should be, no more burned light bulbs, the generator warning light now lights up consistently after I turn the ignition key etc...

 

Thanks for all the input and thanks Roy for all the information I received, I think I now know everything about the chanrging system of the V11 ;-)

 

Still, the bike likes to stall at traffic lights when hot and pops around 2750 RPM but not as profound as before. I was thinking about re-syncing the throttle bodies but before doing that I examined the rubbers around the throttle bodies. Some superficial cracks, nothing on the inside. Put everything back together, started the engine as a checkup and then I noticed a drip on the ground that looked like oil. Where did that came from? Well it seems the left throttle body is leaking underneath at the spring. I guess if it's leaking fuel after a short run it must also be sucking air into when running. I'm betting that's what causing the popping and stalling.

 

If found this thread on the forum: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13643&st=0

Has anyone tried rebuilding the throttle bodied and found good replacement o-rings?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ok, an update.

 

I have replaced my regulator and have been driving my bike for a few weeks and still am amazed where suddenly all that power and torque comes from. :-) Charging voltage is how it should be, no more burned light bulbs, the generator warning light now lights up consistently after I turn the ignition key etc...

 

Thanks for all the input and thanks Roy for all the information I received, I think I now know everything about the chanrging system of the V11 ;-)

 

Still, the bike likes to stall at traffic lights when hot and pops around 2750 RPM but not as profound as before. I was thinking about re-syncing the throttle bodies but before doing that I examined the rubbers around the throttle bodies. Some superficial cracks, nothing on the inside. Put everything back together, started the engine as a checkup and then I noticed a drip on the ground that looked like oil. Where did that came from? Well it seems the left throttle body is leaking underneath at the spring. I guess if it's leaking fuel after a short run it must also be sucking air into when running. I'm betting that's what causing the popping and stalling.

 

If found this thread on the forum: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13643&st=0

Has anyone tried rebuilding the throttle bodied and found good replacement o-rings?

 

I think the recommended way of finding a leak is to wave a propane bottle around until you see a change in revs when it sucks in the gas.

I haven't tried this though. Not lit of course.

 

My bike stalls also when hot, idles away nicely then suddenly kicks back, I'm told it is a sign of a weak timing chain tensioner. As soon as I can I will look at the timing mark with a strobe light, I'm sure it's firing early ever 100 cycles or so causing it to try and reverse direction.

Let me know if you find a cause.

 

Roy

[gstallons]

I like the "unlit" disclaimer ! Yes, you can do that(find air leaks) along with a digital tach hooked up to watch for r.p.m. changes. BTW, you are not going to get a perfect seal on the throttle body shafts so don't spend a lot to get a little.

p.s. With the lighted propane torch a person can chart what is and is not flammable on their bike.

[dark_bike]

If you don't mind my chiming in, I've also got some electrical gremlins mainly a battery that doesnt seem to charge properly.

I've read this thread with interest and fitted an earth lead between regulator and engine, cleaned relay and fuse contacts. I then started the engine from cold and measured voltage : about 13.3. when revving the engine to 2500-3000 that rose to 13.8. switching on the headlight made no change (got that wired through one of those eastetn beaver set-ups)

As I still wasnt getting those 14+ volts I installed a thick wire between the regulator bolt and the negative terminal of the battery. start engine, 17-18 V! which then suddenly dropped to the good old 13.8.... how is that for a gremlin?

havent got round to measuring the voltage between the red and yellow wires (need to take off one faiting half for that, which is a bit fiddly)

 

I suspect the battery isnt charging properly because after driving to work 3-4 days the bike gecomes sluggish to start, especially when it gets cold at night, say between 0 and 10 degrees... battery is about 8 months old, starter motor is new.

 

Tom

[Night Rider]

Hi Tom,

 

That 17-18V was that during the starting, or also after your starter motor stopped spinning?

[dark_bike]

Hi Tom,

 

That 17-18V was that during the starting, or also after your starter motor stopped spinning?

 

that was with the engine running.I revved it up to about 2500. I then took the negative crocodile clip of the volt meter off the neg battery terminal and then put it on again and then it was 13.something volt.

[Night Rider]

Seems you have exactly the same problem I had. 17-18V at start and all charging gone after a while. In my case I had to replace the voltage regulator.

 

Do you have an generator light on your dashboard? You can easily diagnose the regulator and make sure it's not a wiring problem. There's an L-shaped connector leading from your voltage regulator with two wires. The white one is for your regulator light on your dashboard, the black one is the reference voltage for your regulator. You can open up the connector a bit and measure the voltage between the black wire and your regulator ground. If you find your 14V there, then there's something wrong with your wiring or bad grounding etc... But if you have exactly the same readings as when measuring directly on your battery. In that case you know your wiring is correct and your regulator has gone bad. (as was in my case)

 

I replaced mine with a Ducati Energia one which was a bit cheaper then a rebranded Moto Guzzi regulator (and exactly the same), cleaned up all contacts and removed the extra grounding wire from the voltage regulator and my bike has been running fine since.

 

(Much of this info actually comes from Kiwi_Roy, so thank him instead)