Gearing Topic - the pointless thread

[belfastguzzi]

Gearing change is an interesting subject, for 'normal' bikes. I'd like to try the Guzzi with lower gearing, but with shaft drive, there's no practical way for Joe Bloggs to change it. The Griso has a lot of 'go' in the higher rev range, but in terms of max speed, because of the seating position and wide bars, it gets harder to hold on above say, 90/100mph – so it could stand a reduction. The Griso vs V11 performance characteristics topic has been discussed before but it came into focus again when I did a track day. Bikes that the Griso would catch coming up to corners, ran away again out of the corners and into the straights. I'd a weight handicap (both bike and rider) and the Guzzi twin won't match a sports four, but I do wonder if I'd get more useful snap by 'dropping a tooth or two on the front cog'. The Griso doesn't really need gearing for a high top speed, as it's practically un-useable: both legally and more to the point, because of the seating/riding position.

 

This current bike has a faster engine than my 2002 Guzzi and better overall handling, but I reckon that my 2002 Moto Guzzi V11 is faster to ride (as discussed before by various folk). That's mainly because the V11 has clip-ons and a small bikini fairing: the riding position is just better. The Griso (current bike) is an odd mixture of style/design. It goes well, though it is long and heavy, but the seating position is more like a cruiser and the windage becomes a real problem. I originally fancied trying to fit clip-ons or at least lower risers. In the end, I've decided against it. I reckon that the extra control/leverage of the wide bars has saved the day a number of times when either the front or back end has gone. In fact, perhaps I would have lost it at the track day when another bike knocked my front wheel away, if I'd had clip-ons.

 

The revised 8Vs are re-cammed for the *zip to come in at lower revs at the expense of the higher range of the first motors (as far as I understand).

Would a better solution be to have lower gearing?

 

There isn't any practical way to do this, is there? For example, with a car, one easy change would be to swap the diff, but there aren't other variants for the Guzzi.

 

 

*Edit, it would probably be better to use the description 'grunt' rather than 'zip', a couple of sentences above.

[Skeeve]

The revised 8Vs are re-cammed for the *zip to come in at lower revs at the expense of the higher range of the first motors (as far as I understand).

Would a better solution be to have lower gearing?

 

There isn't any practical way to do this, is there? For example, with a car, one easy change would be to swap the diff, but there aren't other variants for the Guzzi.

 

With a Tonti, there's about 3 or 4 final drive options, iirc. For the V11s & CARC models, the final drive gearing is what it is: there're no other alternatives [ie, other models w/ the same driveline that used different final drive gearing.]

 

Now *that's* what Piaggio should do: offer a different final gear set as part of the performance package one has to run to compete in the Griso Cup series in Europe. Then the other CARC models would have an option, tho' it would be rather expensive I'm certain...

[The Monkey]

Going to a different profile cam ie more lift less duration will give you more immediate power. It does in effect shorten the powerband forcing you to shortshift and with a lightened flywheel will help your greaser zip out of those corners. Other than that have a close ratio gear set made up and install em. Its only money right?

[richard100t]

Changing out the pinion gear in the v11 is damn near impossible to do. You probably need special tools and some of the plastic bits just get trashed when you try to remove them. Thats a big downside to shaft drive, and the added weight. But its cleaner and allegedly less maintenance.

[docc]

A "Griso Cup" sound like an attachment for my gas grill for those really drippy Bratwurst . . .

 

And everyone knows that *things* are faster with a bikini.

[Guzzi2Go]

And why is it bikini if there is only one part?

[belfastguzzi]

The revised 8Vs are re-cammed for the *zip to come in at lower revs at the expense of the higher range of the first motors (as far as I understand).

Would a better solution be to have lower gearing?

 

There isn't any practical way to do this, is there? For example, with a car, one easy change would be to swap the diff, but there aren't other variants for the Guzzi.

 

With a Tonti, there's about 3 or 4 final drive options, iirc. For the V11s & CARC models, the final drive gearing is what it is: there're no other alternatives [ie, other models w/ the same driveline that used different final drive gearing.]

 

Now *that's* what Piaggio should do: offer a different final gear set as part of the performance package one has to run to compete in the Griso Cup series in Europe. Then the other CARC models would have an option, tho' it would be rather expensive I'm certain...

 

Reality is that more lettuce and less potatoes would be more effective.

That's just as difficult to achieve though.

 

I was wondering what work the Griso race bikes have done / what parts fitted. Do you have any info on what the performance package is for the Griso Cup?

[belfastguzzi]

OK I found this info on Wild and a thread here from a year ago.

 

Google translation:

During the two days of World Moto Guzzi was presented a preview of the planned conversion kit for motorcycles that will run in the Cup Griso

 

The kit, along with a silencer Termignoni approved supplied with programmable EPROM Griso is 2V 4V (cost 780 euros to the Public U.S.), is composed of the oil spike collection (required by Regulation IMF), port number and a cover codon by a "nose" that replaces the flagship production motorcycles.

 

Developed for the aesthetic parts Millepercento and Giuseppe Ghezzi, enhances the sporty character of the motion, maintaining however its unique line. Has a total cost of 1400 euros (aesthetic parts + silencer).

 

It is proposed exceptionally to the first 10 participants in the Trophy at a price of 700 euros (discount 50%) who performs all four races (races enrollment cost 600 euros).

 

Also note that the Moto Guzzi World Club License gives the speed (cost 310 euros) always the first ten members to this first rate brand organized by Piaggio.

 

Moto Guzzi also for those who would buy the new Griso 8 V for the Trophy, in addition to the kit and license Premium, offers an additional bonus of 1400 euros on the purchase price of the new bike.

 

Participants in the Griso Cup can then freely use some hospitality tents Moto Guzzi (Gazebo 4x3) which will be made available by Piaggio in the paddock from Friday to Sunday Morning Race.

[Baldini]

So that's what you need - the hospitality tent!

 

For me, on track there is no substitute for getting weight over the front wheel. Then you don't have to slow down so much, so you don't notice the gearing. Seriously, sort the seating position & stance - I rode your Griso - as you say it's hard to hang on to & front feels fairly remote. Put grippiest tyres on you can & get over the front wheel in corners. Sod the gearing & performance upgrades for now - first off, use what you have - just use it to it's best advantage. Stick between 3 - 5, Griso surely has enough torque to mean you're driving whilst high revving 4's are changing gear & worrying about high siding.

 

KB

[pete roper]

While I'd like it to be geared a bit lower at the top the problem with lowering the FD ratio is that you'd lower the bottom two gears amking 1st pretty much redundant apart from giving you the ability to flip it onto its back with ease . Ideally I'd like to see different ratios in the gearbox but in all honesty for road use the standard cogs are fine, at least for where I ride they are. On a l-o-n-g flat road I can, even with my collosal girth, get mine to the rev limiter in top if I lie flat on the tank. That's 247kph indicated which is far faster than I ever need to go on a motorbike! Sitting bolt upright and doing my best impression of a wind-sock I can easily see 221kph although it is hideously uncomfortable.

 

As well as Keith's suggestions of getting more weight over the front it is worth, if you want to up your tip-in and corner speeds, dropping the forks a fair bit. I have (I think?) three rings showing above the top yoke. Many people who ride much harder than me have five or more and say it makes an appreciable difference.

 

I have to admit I haven't taken mine to a track day. Apart from the fact I'm not really a 'Track Day' rider I simply don't see the big G as a track bike. If I was going to play there regularly I'd get meself an RS250 'Prilla simply because I love stinkwheels and they remind me of my yoof!!!!

[belfastguzzi]

Those performance mods are a tad ugly, and anyway

I fear that a beaky front won't add sizzling *zip*

nor a pointy tail, startling *snap*.

 

I wonder what sort of effect the kit ECU has?

[belfastguzzi]

If I was going to play there regularly I'd get meself an RS250 'Prilla simply because I love stinkwheels and they remind me of my yoof!!!!

 

There's a nice looking one of those for sale here!

Many years too late for me.

 

 

There's also a track modded pre 97 cbr 600, which would be tempting: but again, probably foolishness as I've only done 1 track day and am not in my 20s.

[Baldini]

...more weight over the front ... dropping the forks a fair bit....

 

Yes, that's partly what i meant. Guzzis wt is too rear biased for scratching. You can get more wt onto front by lowering triple clamps on forks, jacking up rear & changing body position by fitting dropped bars of some sort - to start (I dunno to what extent any of this is practical on a Griso - clearances & drive angles etc). If you can hit corners harder & hold more speed thru them cos you're more confident that front is planted, you don't need to worry so much about accelerating out. Guzzis have never been point & squirt machines.

I don't know how much it's true of Griso as it felt more revy in nature, but one of the advantages of a Tonti or V11 on track is you can put it thru corners on bottom-midrange in a high gear & the fact that because it doesn't make much power ultimately, that you can pretty much use it all, anywhere, w/o the fear of losing the back.

Changing gear = drive/time lost, & another process demanding your attention & unsettling the bike.

Some perceived disadvantages can be made into advantages if you make the most of what it is, rather than trying to make it into something it can't be.

 

RS250 are lovely. But there's something nice about riding a Guzzi on track amongst more obviously appropriate machines. And anyhow, if you've got the right tool, there's no excuses - a Guzzi has the excuse built in!

 

BFG - have you read Keith Code's book "A twist of the wrist"? It's about track riding but the philosophy has wider applications too. It's excellent & well worth getting hold of!

 

KB

[Guzzirider]

Other cheap track hacks that can be a lot of fun are TRX850s, YZF750s and even 90s 900SS Dukes are pretty cheap.