Ultimate smooth ride - throttle like silk.

[ScuRoo]

Funny thing happened today, funny as in weird, not ha ha. I always fill up with Shell Optimax when I can, don't think about it too much but I beleived it has the highest RON rating and besides, I have a Shell garage within 500 metres from me by way of explanation...

 

Now, the M4 exhausts sound grrreaat - but the bike does stumble & hesitate from time to time on constant throttle from 3ish to 4ish thousand rpm like when rumbling through towns & villages. Also, on decel it pops & farts & generally makes a lovely 'look at me' spectical of itself pretending to be a 'tuned to within an inch of its life' backfiring beast.

 

Well, been out on a 3 hour ride all up today and the fuel light comes on so within 10 miles or so I pull into Dorking BP fuel station. Fill up, pay up, helmet on and start up again.

 

Man! - before I had got outta the station I'd noticed sumthin, wtf! Huh, imagination is a weird thing I thought. This feels great. Nah, bullshit, my mind is playing tricks...

 

Boy's, I rode it slow, I hammered it hard, I tested her on a constant throttle through various rev ranges. It was S-W-E-E-E-E-E-E-E-EEEEEET!!! Don't understand it. I ain't even got an answer to it at all. But, I can honestly say it was completely singing with no bullshit hiccups! Smooth as a baby's bottom.

 

I kinda guessed it must be 1 RON rating higher or so than Optimax but have since checked on the web & apparently it is one lower than Optimax. Huh? Work that out.

 

Dunno what that BP Ultimate has innit but it sure runs smoooother!

 

Have any of you noticed your bike running MUCH better on Ultimate than Optimax too? Or something else, for that matter?

 

I ordered a Fat Duc last week just to give it a try-out & see if it has a positive effect - but honestly, if I get more fill-ups on Ultimate & it continues to produce the sweet ride it did today, it won't even be broken outta the box! I really can't get my head around how it had such a massive impact. Does'nt make sense..... but, do yourself a favour if, like me, all you've been squirting in the girl is Optimax, give that BP jungle-juice a go & see if it smooths yours out too!

 

Do any of you have any similar - weird - experiences?

[stormsedge]

The news sharks have been testing octane ratings at various pumps here in US...findings indicate most octane claims are higher than that coming from the pump, and the gas coming from the pump is all over the scale. You must have gotten the real deal.

[gstallons]

I buy from ( have a BP card, rebates, etc....) BP exclusively. If I can't find their station I buy name brand fuels only. After talking to a jobber about fuel quality my eyes were opened to different brand names of fuel..

[Lamedog]

By all means, buy fuel that makes your bike smile.

 

Interesting that Major Oil companies are no longer major refiners. They remain major marketing franchisor's, but - at least in the US - they don't impose any special specifications relating to octane due to the predominant use of pipelines for transmission and the fact that refineries undergo turnarounds and backfill marketing needs from other suppliers. Within the UK it is possible pipelines are less used and the fuel system less fungible, so perhaps it is more likely to find a reliable supplier of fuel that is a higher quality than other suppliers. However, even more than in the US, in the UK major oil companies have sold refineries to investors or govenrnments. Within the US the old "majors" have sold to "new majors" like Valero and Tesoro, where these operate with greater independence than the "old" model. Ultimately for most of the US it is all about meeting pipeline specs in the distribution system - at least in major markets.

 

There shouldn't be cases of gas leaving a station below the advertised octane rating, though statistical quality control and on line octane certification have cut into the historical normal ocatne "giveaway". This historical octane "giveaway" was added to assure downstream compliance testing never found a "low" test. My understanding is that compliance testing must now show the fuel is below the testing error before it is considered noncompliant - this may vary by state. Octane giveaway today is due to the increased variety of fuels that pass through the system. Ethanol and butane give great octane, theoretically lower mileage. In the US the greatest variations occur during transition from "winter" gas (lots of butane and potential octane giveaway) to "summer" gas (essentially no butane, but better mileage depending upon ethanol content). For California we transition from "Winter" to "Summer" in late March/early April to get the distribution system RVP's into compliance with summer specs. In this period its easy to find significant differences in fuel quality from one station to the next. Just some thoughts.

[gstallons]

A fuel terminal sell to all gasoline or fuel retailers. When the hauler/buyer loads at the terminal they use a "credit card" that allows each load to have their blends af addative(s) to be mixed with the particular quantity of fuel being purchased. "JiffyMart" type stores buy & resell the lowest quality / price of fuel with 0 addatives.

All of these oxygenated, nitrogen added, no telling how much alchohol added witches' brew we are being sold is incredible. Gasoline has about the same shelf life as milk today. You must use it in about 30 days or it goes stale and or starts eating plastic containers. YUCK....

[Lex]

gstallons,

 

Not being a petroleum engineer (and thinking lamedog may be one or something close) I should keep my mouth shut but I'm weak. The short version is that you have been sold a load of BS. California is the extreme but all the fuel sold in this state is made by three or four refineries, it isn't much different in the rest of the US. All fuel sold in the US is formulated under the control of the government. I don't know about the UK and EU but I doubt it is much different. Yes, additive packages very a bit but the differences are minor. My father spent 28 years making gasoline for Chevron, he found people who thought brand X gas was better then brand Y to be pretty funny.

 

While putting alcohol in gasoline is a very dumb idea it isn't done without control, vendors can't just add whatever amount of ethanol they feel like. "E10" is very close to 10% ethanol, have you noticed all the furor over the EPA wanting to allow E15? That is only a 5% difference. If retailers could add whatever amount they want it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

That doesn't mean one engine might run better on one brand, given the crap that gets called gasoline today combined with ECUs set up more for the EPA then what the engine wants one brand might be better then another since all (stock) engines are running close to the edge. A significant difference like the winter/ summer blending lamedog talked about and, while less likely, the tiny differences in additive packages can make a difference in how an engine runs.

 

Feel free to buy your gas at the name brand places is it makes you feel better but don't stress if you get stuck and have to buy a tank Jiffy Mart gas. I very much doubt you or your engine will notice any difference.

 

Lex

 

 

A fuel terminal sell to all gasoline or fuel retailers. When the hauler/buyer loads at the terminal they use a "credit card" that allows each load to have their blends af addative(s) to be mixed with the particular quantity of fuel being purchased. "JiffyMart" type stores buy & resell the lowest quality / price of fuel with 0 addatives.

All of these oxygenated, nitrogen added, no telling how much alchohol added witches' brew we are being sold is incredible. Gasoline has about the same shelf life as milk today. You must use it in about 30 days or it goes stale and or starts eating plastic containers. YUCK....

[Baldini]

... I should keep my mouth shut but I'm weak....

 

Know the feeling well! KB

[Skeeve]

California is the extreme but all the fuel sold in this state is made by three or four refineries, it isn't much different in the rest of the US.

 

Two, actually. There is one up in the Bay area [in Martinez, run by Chevron, iirc] & another down here in Lo-Cal So.Cal. run by Exxon, I think. Those are the only two in the state I know of. There may have been more at one time, but I think those are the only two still running. Which is why when they both go offline at one time for "scheduled maintenance" California has a price spike*, because out of the other 5? U.S. refineries, only two are set up to make CA gas, & they don't do it because it requires shutting down their normal production.

 

"E10" is very close to 10% ethanol, have you noticed all the furor over the EPA wanting to allow E15? That is only a 5% difference. If retailers could add whatever amount they want it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

Actually, it's a 50% difference, and bad news for any vehicle w/o alcohol-compatible rubber throughout its fuel system [which is just about anything not built to support Dubya's dumb@ss "E85" program to increase our dependence upon foreign oil. Or were you unaware it takes more energy to make a gallon of corn-ethanol than we get out of it?

 

* - isn't it interesting that they do this B.S. about every 3rd or 4th year? You'd think that the state govt. would have mandated that only one of them can be down for maintenance at any one time, to prevent the sort of price-gouging that goes on when they're both "Oops! Suddenly unable to meet demand.." But of course, the politicians are in the pockets of their campaign contributors, so the game goes on...

 

Ride on!

[belfastguzzi]

Uk Petrol is a bit different from US gas, from what I've read here over the years.

 

Within the UK there are noticeable differences reported between 'brands' and it could well be that there are also differences between regions, especially such as England & Northern Ireland, as oil'n'stuff comes directly into terminals in Belfast.

 

Over here, for example, the Tesco supermarket petrol is often the cheapest, but it is regularly reported as being bad stuff. Motorbikes & cars get less miles on Tesco petrol.

On the other hand, Sainsbury supermarket petrol has been reported at times as being the best available, with race teams obtaining fuel there 'cos they've tested it and found it best.

There are of course lots more anecdotes.

[GuzziMoto]

This is a slippery subject in the USA. But here are a couple observations....

Years ago I used Shell Fuel in my dirt bike and a friend used another brand in his (same bike). Mine would always start (kick start) and his was hard to start. I told him to try Shell, he did and with Shell fuel his would start just as easily as mine.

While the base stock of gasoline in this country does not really vary from brand to brand (fungible) the additive blend can and does vary. It can vary from brand to brand, summer to winter, and area to area (sometimes those areas are very close to each other). Also, fresh fuel from a station that goes through a lot of gas is better then old fuel from a station that does not. And sometimes there is water or other contaminants in a stations fuel tank. That can cause issues. Water is even more of an issue when there is ethanol in the fuel.

The issue of alcohol is often misunderstood, both in relation to percentage as well as energy in versus energy out. I do not expect to change the view of others but I do encourage people to read about it from reputable sources (i.e., not FOX).

And while you can legitimately call an increase from 10% to 15% a 50% increase it is also known as a 5% increase. It comes down to point of view.

[gstallons]

(i.e. not Fox) OMG..........

 

 

[slug]

I recently moved to a semi-rural area and just discovered a little family-owned fuel/oil distributor that sells ethanol-free gas, including 92 octane. I don't think you can get this in any big city anymore.

 

I can't tell for sure, but our Impreza and Ranger seem to get slightly better mileage and run smoother. Sadly, I've been too busy with home and work projects to tune up the Guzzi and really test the fuel out.

 

If anybody here wants to come over and help finish a fence, deck and landscaping while I go out and ride, you're more than welcome.

[abouc]

I don't use Shell unless it's the only option without running empty. My Aprilia stumbles and has reduced power when run on Shell. The Guzzi is no fan either. I've had similar experiences from multiple Shell stations hundreds of miles apart, and figured it had to do with the valve cleaning detergents they add.

 

BP and Marathon seem to be the most consistent performers. Oddly enough, my truck doesn't care what I fill up with, so long as it's name brand.

[enzo temko]

There must be differences because my Guzz does seem to be sensitive to gas sources. Here in the NW, ARCO is ten cents cheaper than all the other brands, so I've been using it. Unfortunately, I don't think my 'Raptor' likes the stuff. All this makes me think about adding some high octane additive for every fill-up.

 

I also used to add acetone to my gas in my truck. I swear it ran better. Has anyone heard of this or know what it does?

[belfastguzzi]

I also used to add acetone to my gas in my truck. I swear it ran better. Has anyone heard of this or know what it does?

I looked that up a while ago, because there were a few cans of acetone sitting around. After reading, I decided against it. Can't remember the details, however here is some opinion:

 

'acetone reduces surface tension causing better atomisation and therefore better economy' according to one site - maybe, but the petrol companies know that better atomising fuels work better Fuels have fantastic cocktails of additives designed to do this and a lot of other jobs, mostly for improving economy and improving engine life/wear. I did a few years research in fuel additives, and it is a huge industry.

 

There are a few things going against it - 1.)acetone is toxic 2)dangerous - vapour can very easily - it's now a controlled substance. You used to be able to obtain it easily for paint spraying, but now you need to be a registered sprayshop to get hold of it 3.)acetone evaporates very quickly

 

Certainly with diesel fuel, you can improve the mpg slightly (15%) by improving the percentage of fuel burnt (eg 'fumigation' with propane) - sometimes referred to as a catalytic effect - basically burning the diesel at a higher temperature, but you need to have at least 15% propane to achieve this effect (by hotter-burning). I would doubt that the tiny amount of acetone they are recommending (0.05 to 0.1%) would be enough for this effect.

 

Certainly worth a few experiments, but I think people often drive more carefully to obtain a good result - often unconsciously. We did some informal experiments with an additive, and drivers were reporting significant gains. We did a 'proper' experiment on a fleet of lorries, some drivers were getting additive, some weren't but they didn't know (ie a 'blind' experiment), and there was no significant difference.

 

------------------------

 

Not sure how relevant this is as I'm no chemist, but back in my biking day's we would use acetone (among other things) as a octane booster.

 

Raising the octane will make the fuel more stable, something to do with free radicals if I remember but it's a bit of a blur......basically it makes a engine run cooler thus allowing us to advance the timing and or increase the compression for more power without resulting in the dreaded detonation (most of the time!

 

--------------------------

 

For use in diesel fuel, the recommended amount of acetone is around 1.5ml per litre of fuel.

It is easily obtainable - in small bottles over the counter at a chemists - which is pricey.

From ebay in 5 litre containers - no problem with carriage either - cheaper. That's where I got my last 5 litres.

From glass fibre supplies outlets - they use it for cleaning tools amongst other things - cheaper still.

There's an article on the subject at:

http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

Note that using too much acetone will decrease your mpg PAST the original starting point. Less is more etc!

Hope this is some help!

 

 

--------------------

 

The reports (see next quote, below) don't mention the concentration of acetone in the fuel, but it sounded as if it was quite high if they were planning on diluting it down to 0.2%. As mentioned previously, too much acetone has a negative effect on mpg. The "damage" could be purely in terms of mpg, or could only occur in old vehicles using natural rubber parts- the report didn't go into specifics.

 

It can cause problems with some rubber seals and parts, but most vehicles manufactured in recent years are not using natural rubber bits any more - they've moved to synthetics and Viton and what have you which are not affected. There are some details on testing various seals etc in the report I mentioned - and it should be borne in mind that these tests were conducted at concentrations far higher than would be encountered in use in a vehicle.

 

As with many of these ideas and additives - it's a case of suck it and see at the end of the day. Some people have reported finding no difference at all in fuel consumption using acetone as an additive, and many others have said that they would never go back to NOT using it because it makes a hefty difference to their motoring costs. The only way forward really is to ignore it or give it a go. The concentrations are very low at less than two parts in a thousand, and personally I can't see that such a dilute mixture could have much of a damaging effect on your engine. I use it, as does my father in law (4x4 Transit and Pajero respectively) and we've both achieved better mpg. I'm currently running a tankful without it to see if the mpg decreases again, after which I'll use another tank with it added. The only difference I (thought) I noticed was that the engine seemed to run more smoothly and quieter at tickover. Power (or lack of it) seemed the same as with straight diesel.

 

 

VietNamNet Bridge – The Military Petroleum Company yesterday said that it had completed negotiations with its foreign partner on the acetone-mixed petrol.

 

Acetone-mixed gasoline users to be compensated

No more sales of acetone-mixed petrol http://english.vietnamnet.vn/social/2006/09/609700/

 

Singapore’s Glencore company has agreed to take back the remaining volume of petrol with acetone stocked in the Military Petroleum Company’s tanks.

 

Accordingly, around 3,800cu.m (1cu.m equivalent to 1,000l) of petrol will be transported to Singapore. However, the Singaporean partner hasn’t answered the question: ‘why was acetone mixed with the petrol?’. They said they would review the production process before answering the question.

 

The Military Petroleum Company is also calculating losses to ask for compensation.

 

Meanwhile, the Vietnam Petroleum Import Export Corporation’s (Petrolimex) Saigon branch (Petrolimex Saigon), after two days working with Glencore, also reached an agreement to re-export another batch of acetone-mixed petrol to Singapore.

 

Deputy Director of Petrolimex Saigon, Dang Duy Quan, announced that Glencore promised to receive back the whole batch of M95 petrol that it sold to his company, plus the volume of petrol that Petrolimex Saigon poured into the same tanks with acetone-mixed petrol. The total volume is around 16,000cu.m or 16 million litres of petrol. Glencore will provide a similar volume of non-acetone petrol for Petrolimex Saigon and pay all expenses related to this case.

 

“Our company and Glencore are very surprised about the recent case. In terms of legality, we are not at fault, and Glencore has also carried out its part of the contract. However, the blame still lies with us. We apologise and pledge to properly deal with any complaints from customers,” Mr Quan said.

 

(Source: Tuoi Tre, Thanh Nien)

Acetone-mixed gasoline re-exported15:59' 04/10/2006 (GMT+7)

 

VietNamNet Bridge – 16,200cu.m of petrol containing acetone of the Vietnam Petroleum Import Export Corporation (Petrolimex) left Vietnam for Singapore on October 1.

 

Acetone-mixed petrol to be re-exported to Singapore

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/biz/2006/09/611062/

 

Another batch of acetone-mixed gasoline of the Military Petroleum Company will also be re-exported to Singapore in the next several days.

 

Petrolimex Office Manager Vu The Bang revealed that its Singaporean partner, Glencore, accepted to take back the volume of problematic petrol and pay transport fees. However, Glencore has not announced why acetone was mixed in its gasoline.

 

The Military Petroleum Company is fulfilling formalities to re-export its acetone-mixed petrol. The foreign partner will also pay related expenditures.

 

According to petrol traders, this kind of gasoline didn’t appear in the north because gasoline provided for this market is mainly imported from China via Hai Phong Port. Southern provinces use gasoline imported from Singapore and the Republic of Korea.

 

However, learning experience from this case, Vietnamese petroleum importers have added a new condition into contracts: “no acetone in petrol”.

 

(Source: VNE)

____________

 

 

There is positive experience report here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/12755-my-experience-adding-acetone-petrol.html

 

Interestingly, I see some more comment on Tesco fuel, which I mentioned in my previous post here.

My mechanic in the U.K. warns all his clients not to use tesco petrol or diesel. He's seen the results! Once he showed me a can of tesco diesel taken out of my fathers van, it melt more like paint than diesel! He's allways having to put system/injector cleaners through cars that have run on tesco fuel for even just a few months as they soon start to run rough.

 

 

--------

 

Ditto. Daughter filled up Mum's Daewoo Matiz with Tesco fuel last month and it ran rubbish, misfiring a lot. Dad messed around testing the injectors, looked like injectors 1 and 2 were rough (not much fun on a 3 cylinder! ). Dad chucked in some fuel cleaner, slight improvement.

 

Then the tank ran down, filled up with normal petrol and soon it ran smoothly again.