Any known issues with the buckets/cam lobes?

[Splicer]

Six months ago I bought a Nero Corsa with 9,000 miles on it. I've ridden it another three thousand in the meantime, mostly around-town riding but a few trips into the mountains as well.

 

First, a couple weeks ago, the motor started sounding clicky. Then the motor started banging. I was wondering whether I was experiencing Guzzichondria when it started making noises like there was a loose rock inside the left cylinder and convinced me that this was not my imagination. Here's the view from under the valve cover:

 

http://splicer.com/files/CIMG0043.mp4

 

Loose pushrod! That can't be good.

 

So the bike got towed to the shop. A few days later, I am told that I have to replace both buckets and both cam lobes. This will not be cheap. I asked how this could have happened, and the mechanic (a Guzzi dealer) said it had to be a material or design defect. There were no recalls on the 2004 Nero Corsa and I thought I would have heard something if there was any widespread problem with the V11s from 2004.

 

Anyone have any idea how this could have happened?

[savagehenry]

Splicer,

First, hate to hear this.

Second, can't see the pictures due to my computer illiteracy/post is funky,

and next,

Who did the last valve adjustment, how involved in your bike do you get?

Are you hip to "Tapping tappets are happy tappets?" This sounds like it was bad before it got worse, and there are so many reasons this could occur...both through part failure/premature wear, or improper maintenence, a mere forgotten nut tightening, or a mistimed and mis-set pushrod clearance, an unseen to the eye bastard chip of some hardshit seating in the rocker cap and eating it, etc...SOUND'S like it was pretty eff'ed before you shut it down.

I hate to say it, but Why is probably of less importance than how it will be repaired at this moment.

I'm not aware of there ever being an issue with cam face surface hardness with any of the '99-04 V11's

Maybe if you could post some more pic's, give us a little history of your bike's "daily feeding and care", best of luck, for what that's worth, S.H.

[Splicer]

Thanks. Looks like the "how" will be I'll find a couple grand somehow to pay the shop, wait three weeks for parts to arrive and then hopefully have a motorcycle again.

 

The history I have is brief. It was due for valve adjustment right around now, and the valves have not been adjusted since I bought the bike 3000 miles ago. I had the shop do a presale inspection before I bought it and it had a mostly clean bill of health at 9,000 miles. My previous bike was a Stone (hydraulic lifters) so I was hoping to learn valve adjustment on this bike.

 

Since I bought the bike in January, I've brought it to the shop three times for unrelated issues: two speedometer cables, tires and replacing the rear drive oil (presale inspection found the rear drive oil to be milky). The last time it was in the shop was I think at the end of March.

 

I first noticed that the bike was getting louder about a month ago, and I attributed that to an exhaust leak—I have floppy crossover syndrome. I did a temporary fix with exhaust sealant, but then about two weeks ago noticed that the motor was sounding tappier, or clickier. Then, as I said before, "clicky" gradually turned into quite a racket.

 

I haven't had much of a chance to be very involved in maintenance. I've had the right-hand injector housing slip off and had to get it back on at the side of the road. Like I said, I was looking forward to doing my first valve adjustment soon. Before that it was the previous owner who did his own maintenance after the warranty period was up. I have the presale inspection report and the guy's word and that's it.

 

The link is a direct link to the video on my server. It may work if you copy and paste it into the browser address bar by itself. I don't have any other pictures, except of the bike in its intact state.

 

My fear right now is that it ran dry on oil. I have never been able to read the stupid plastic dipstick. I unscrew it, wipe it clean, push the bike up with one hand, being careful not to tip it over onto the other side, push the dipstick in, and it comes out with a lot of oil at the end, gradually thinning until well above the fill line. Do I read by the thickest of the oil, or do I read by the halfway-as-much oil part, or do I read by where there is any oil at all? Worst dipstick ever, and I should have replaced it months ago. But I figured as long as I was seeing a good deal of oil around the "full" line that it must be OK. Also, the Stone never consumed a drop of oil, so it seemed normal that the Nero Corsa wouldn't either.

[Baldini]

Oil dipstick is crap, there are aftermarket ones available, or some modify stock one - I drilled holes in mine, but it's still crap. You have to get it really dry before it goes in if you want an accurate reading. Be aware it can pick up oil on sides as it goes in & comes out.

 

These bikes can suffer from oil starvation on hard acceleration, (or even some say on v steep climbs)esp if oil is low. This is because the oil migrates away from the pick-up in the sump. It is worth maintaining oil level at or slightly above max on the stick. There has been much discussion on this - try search. Many have fitted a sloppage plate (available from Pete Roper) to keep the oil in place.

 

I'm not a mechanic but, ime, worn cams & rockers would be good indicator of lack of oil.

 

KB

[luhbo]

Pull the pushrod first. It's a not too difficult task (unless you don't strip the small bolt). Take care of how the shims and springs are arranged.

 

Maybe it's only this pushrod that went.

 

hubert

[Tom M]

Sorry to hear of your misfortune Splicer. I don't recall reading about any cam failures on this board but your mechanic might be right in that maybe the cam wasn't hardened properly.

 

Did you ever see the low oil pressure light on your dash light up? There have been reports of the oil filter unscrewing itself but that usually resulted in rod bearing failures, not cam and lifter failures. Here's Pete Roper's explanation of how the oil flows through the Guzzi engine. It seems to me (also not a mechanic) like you would have other damage if you did have an extremely low oil situation.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8466&hl=suck

 

FWIW I painted the lower part of my dipstick white with that spray paint that's meant for plastic. It's still hard to read but it's much better than when it was black.

[Splicer]

Pull the pushrod first. It's a not too difficult task (unless you don't strip the small bolt). Take care of how the shims and springs are arranged.

 

Maybe it's only this pushrod that went.

 

The shop (Munroe in SF) is telling me that without question the buckets and cam lobes must be replaced.

 

Sounds like oil starvation. I have been known to accelerate hard on occasion, and I live in a place with very steep hills. I think I was going up such a very steep hill when I saw the oil light blink for a fraction of a second. It was just that once and like I said, I think I was going up a steep hill.

 

Keep the oil well above full. OK. If this bike ever moves again, I will 1) replace the dipstick (though the holes drilled through idea seems brilliant) and 2) always put enough oil in that it's spilling out of somewhere.

[felix42o]

Sorry to hear the bad news. Could alway be worse, though, I suppose. I've always filled mine to the fill mark without the dipstick screwed in, which adds an extra 1/2" or so above factory. This has always worked for me, but then I can't say I spend much time riding up steep hills. The sump plate is the most accepted fix I think.

[me2grouchy]

Sorry to hear the bad news. Could alway be worse, though, I suppose. I've always filled mine to the fill mark without the dipstick screwed in, which adds an extra 1/2" or so above factory. This has always worked for me, but then I can't say I spend much time riding up steep hills. The sump plate is the most accepted fix I think.

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles with your bike.Would be interesting to find what caused it but ultimately expensive to have the shop fishing around for the cause.I would suggest finding another engine from a donor bike.then doing the valve adjustment etc.on it.Micha at moto international had one for sale a few months ago and another guy was selling off parts from a v11 in L.A. a month or so back in the classifieds of this site.I know because i bought a bike with the loose oil filter nightmare and finally found a guy on the east coast with an engine that I didn't have to pay so much shipping on.you will be waiting awhile on parts and paying a premium for labor to break it down and button it back up.

You do have some very steep riding surface in the san fran area and your bike may have lost oil pressure gassing it up some of those hills around town.There are some good guzzi guys in your area.look up guzzitech and talk to the fellow over there.I've bought parts from him for my guzzis and airhead.Don't get in a panic and pay more than you have to.

[Skeeve]

Sorry to read this news.

 

Before we go looking at oil starvation, what about we determine if the correct oil was being used? We know that our Guzzis w/ their antique flat tappets require healthy doses of ZDDP in the oil to be used, and none of the modern "friction modified" stuff for cages meets requirements.

 

Also, if it was an oil starvation issue, wouldn't the bottom end have made Pete Roper's dreaded 'dagga-dagga' noise of protest long before the tappets & cam gave up the ghost?

 

STP oil treatment is one of the ZDDP additives that's available almost anywhere stateside: if we can't get a good quality diesel oil [& maybe even if we can], we shouldn't be afraid to use such preventative measures...

 

If the oil filter was the OEM, have you checked to see if it backed off at all? That does seem to be a less-than-uncommon failure mode, and we've all heard of the hose-clamp fix to prevent that from happening.

 

Not trying to raise any dead oil- or hose-clamp threads here, just stating the obvious that all alternatives should be considered... [nerd]

[Skeeve]

You do have some very steep riding surface in the san fran area and your bike may have lost oil pressure gassing it up some of those hills around town.

 

That's a very good observation, and a sloppage plate should definitely be on order for after the rebuild...

[savagehenry]

I tend to side with Skeeve, here.

The issue with low oil, and loose filters, seemed to be crank bearings. I would seriously consider that you will need a lot of looking into this motor before it's started again. Your oil light flickering would not put you in this much trouble without other stuff first. The earlier referenced oil routing article by Pete Roper called it "not a sudden engine death, but death by a thousand cuts" (paraphrased). I ran mine "to red" more than a few times before I decided I wanted a sloppage plate. BEST damn thing you can do if you goose these bikes at all, IMHO. Currently at 24,000 "pert near" carefree miles.

And when you put a plate on, before you reinstall the oil pan, put the oil dipstick in, w/o screwing it in, and mark the spot where the plate and the dipstick meet. Then, I put a Vee notch in a dipstick rib with a file. Way easier to see than holes for me. Now, put the belly pan on, gaskets and all. Leave the bike on the sidestand and start dumping in that nice, fresh oil, and after qt. # 3, add a 1/4 qt, check your stick, repeat, till you get damn near the top of the plate, which you can also see with a flashlight when you look right down the hole in the case. I put in two more notches for 1/2 qt. down, and "you really should think about oil, NOW" level

And Me, being me, I like the second engine route. As always, the best money spent is that which you do not spend, so much as to pay tuition at Home Schoolin' on your bike, if that's an option, money makes it make sense, etc... first, after a long night in the garage, and smile like a Effin' Fool on the first successful Good Luck, S.H.

[Baldini]

....wouldn't the bottom end have made Pete Roper's dreaded 'dagga-dagga' noise of protest....

 

Is the bottom end OK?

[me2grouchy]

Call guzzijon from classifieds on this site and see if he'e sold his 10K mi $500.00 engine.Then go from there.If it works out that he does and you put it in you will still own the one in there now and if it isn't completely muffed up you can repair and sell to recoup some $$$.Will expedite your getting back on the road.Or not your call..

[jrt]

$500? Sheesh, that's a deal.

 

Actually, I do remember a couple of reports on soft valves, so having less-than-properly hardened cam or followers is not out of the question.

 

But generally, I'm with Baldini, et al. How's the bottom end? The bearings there seem to be (usually) the first to go.

 

Or, check the oil galleys to the top end. Could be some freaky problem like the galleys are plugged.