early frame v11/ Rake change

[dave]

I tried to live with and then dial in the suspension of my 2000 sport after rebuilding it from boxes. But soon realized that the shaft drive combined with my less than subtle throttle control was upsetting the already drama prone geometry (This is my 1st guzzi and shaft drive bike). If I had more cash I would have bought new triple trees with less offset to increase the trail. Instead I opted for the old school solution of cutting a 2mm groove just behind the head and tig welded it back together. If my math is correct, this should result in a 27 degree rake and roughly 110mm trail. IT IS SOOO MUCH BETTER (I am used to monsters and sv650s). It might be I am finally getting old.

[gstallons]

I tried to live with and then dial in the suspension of my 2000 sport after rebuilding it from boxes. But soon realized that the shaft drive combined with my less than subtle throttle control was upsetting the already drama prone geometry (This is my 1st guzzi and shaft drive bike). If I had more cash I would have bought new triple trees with less offset to increase the trail. Instead I opted for the old school solution of cutting a 2mm groove just behind the head and tig welded it back together. If my math is correct, this should result in a 27 degree rake and roughly 110mm trail. IT IS SOOO MUCH BETTER (I am used to monsters and sv650s). It might be I am finally getting old.

 

What was the original rake in degrees?

[dave]

What was the original rake in degrees?

Factory specs as 25 degrees, my bike actual 25+- .5 degree without rider. My goal was to build in room to raise the forks without causing even more twitch. It is still pushing around corners though...

[Mike Stewart]

Hmmm, My 2000 Sport never pushed in a corner at any speed , slightly nervous on fast winding roads forces you to be smoooooth on the transition from throttle to braking. Could it be the tires you are using?

 

Also, the other bikes you mentioned are quite lighter and have a shorter wheel base than the V11 Sport.

 

Mike

 

 

What was the original rake in degrees?

Factory specs as 25 degrees, my bike actual 25+- .5 degree without rider. My goal was to build in room to raise the forks without causing even more twitch. It is still pushing around corners though...

[Chuck]

Could it be the tires you are using?

+1

[stormsedge]

Mine was twitchy in corners and high speed straights when I first got it (had about scared the previous owner to death)...replacing the missing motor mount bolt on one side and tightening the other went a long ways to making it better. But, the single biggest improvement came from backing off the steering damper--that eliminated the twitch all together. I would have never thought of (or attempted) the path you undertook, but it really sounds like a good solution. That's what I like about this forum--so many people smarter than me.

 

That said, the power delivery is still a little wonky when riding the tight stuff (add that to my general wonkiness--ha ha)...I plan to switch from the single plate clutch to the heavier double plate unit as the path towards resolving that piece (reading Pete Roper's thoughts on this and my memory of the relative smoothness of my previous '79 SP has convinced me that change will help---the single plate is probably on borrowed time anyway). Keep smiling.

[GuzziMoto]

Well, to each their own. I'm not sure about the wisdom of what you have done (adding trail but also decreasing rake and taking weight off the front wheel) but if it makes the bike more of what you want....

There are easier ways of adding trail and/or decreasing the rake like offset bearings, triples with different offsets, even sliding the forks down in the triples (could require tube extensions to get the kind of changes you went for) that would be un-doable if you ever wanted to return the handling back to stock. By the way, stock the V11 is right there with the other bikes you mentioned, maybe a little more conservative if anything. There is nothing overly aggressive about the geometry of a V11.

The funny thing is the early red frame bikes have a slightly steeper rake and a slightly more aggressive feel, you could have just swapped over to a later black frame bike to get at least part of the change you went for. Some of us actually prefer the red frame bikes for their quicker steering and more precise handling. The wife's red frame V11 (a 2000 model) had handling issues that went away when we removed the steering dampener (it was binding). Things improved more when I modified the forks so they actually had compression dampening (stock that fork only has adjustable hydraulic bump stops). Also tire choice and tire pressure have a large part to play. And for the on/off throttle transitions making sure the throttle cables have the minimum amount of slack possible helps a lot, as does proper injection set up. Riding technique may play a part as well, but from what I have seen people I have watched hop on a Guzzi have not had an issue adapting. But you do use the clutch a little more then you might on some other bikes to smooth the throttle transitions out.

My Daytona I upgraded to GSXR forks, they work much better and the triples have less offset for more trail but they are slightly shorter so the rake is slightly steeper with a hair more weight on the front wheel, all good things. I have another set for the wifes V11 but have not mounted them yet, all it takes is different steering head bearings so maybe this winter. They are cheap and readily available front ends. I use the forks, wheels, brakes, etc. Upgrade the whole package. The wife's V11 also has a Penske shock but that was because the stock shock suffered the common shock eye cracking issue. But it does work better with the Penske.

Did you ask anyone about your handling issues before you cut it? Seems like they would have been fixable.

Well, I hope it is welded back on straight and safe. Best of luck with it.

[Lucky Phil]

I tried to live with and then dial in the suspension of my 2000 sport after rebuilding it from boxes. But soon realized that the shaft drive combined with my less than subtle throttle control was upsetting the already drama prone geometry (This is my 1st guzzi and shaft drive bike). If I had more cash I would have bought new triple trees with less offset to increase the trail. Instead I opted for the old school solution of cutting a 2mm groove just behind the head and tig welded it back together. If my math is correct, this should result in a 27 degree rake and roughly 110mm trail. IT IS SOOO MUCH BETTER (I am used to monsters and sv650s). It might be I am finally getting old.

Seems like cracking a walnut with a sledge hammer to me.

Ciao

[Baldini]

...My goal was to build in room to raise the forks without causing even more twitch. It is still pushing around corners though...

 

I'm confused. It seems to me it's the wrong tool & the wrong nut: If you have ended up with more relaxed geometry, won't that just unload the front & exacerbate your original problem of it pushing wide in corners? Perhaps I have misunderstood.

 

You raised the forks also?

 

Do you know rake & trail you have now & what is stock rake & trail?

 

KB

[dave]

Thanks for all the feedback,

I am sure that there are folks out there with the skill and familiarity to not be concerned by the vague front end of the bike stock. For myself, after scouring this site and the web for months I came to the conclusion that given the bike as a whole, it would never be a stable platform in my clumsy hands without a trail adjustment. I think that swapping out the front end as Mr Guzzimoto did would have been preferable if I had more cash to spare. As to wrong-nut/hammer... The gains in stability from trail relative to the loss from weight transfer is mammoth... I understand that cutting the frame is a scary thing for most people. Swapping out frames and swing arms and front ends is no different. You either know what you are doing or you don't. I have a fabrication shop so my choice was biased. Think of it as a short wheel based ballabio with a 160 rear. The understeering in corners is a separate issue I think, maybe a trait of the rear weight bias or tires...dunno yet. I have to play around with it again now that the front has been changed. Like so many have said here before, It is wonderful bike and it is very good that guzzi folk take such an active hand in their machines however they configure them.

[gstallons]

You should show pics of the welds so people will get off the subject and they will stop thinking "Mad Max'' type of rigging......

[GuzziMoto]

Thanks for all the feedback,

I am sure that there are folks out there with the skill and familiarity to not be concerned by the vague front end of the bike stock. For myself, after scouring this site and the web for months I came to the conclusion that given the bike as a whole, it would never be a stable platform in my clumsy hands without a trail adjustment. I think that swapping out the front end as Mr Guzzimoto did would have been preferable if I had more cash to spare. As to wrong-nut/hammer... The gains in stability from trail relative to the loss from weight transfer is mammoth... I understand that cutting the frame is a scary thing for most people. Swapping out frames and swing arms and front ends is no different. You either know what you are doing or you don't. I have a fabrication shop so my choice was biased. Think of it as a short wheel based ballabio with a 160 rear. The understeering in corners is a separate issue I think, maybe a trait of the rear weight bias or tires...dunno yet. I have to play around with it again now that the front has been changed. Like so many have said here before, It is wonderful bike and it is very good that guzzi folk take such an active hand in their machines however they configure them.

Where is it understeering in the corners, on the way in, mid-corner, or on the gas coming out?

I think most of the surprise here is because most of us have found the V11 to be a well handling bike. Based on my own experiences I could see someone not being happy with a red frame bike but not for the reasons you quoted, I have found it to be very lively and communicative from the front almost to the point where some might think it is too much. But to hear someone say it is "vague" makes me wonder.... It could be an issue of communication between us, I may not understand what you mean by "vague". But it does make me question if there was not an issue like a bad steering dampener or something that was causing this. It just does not seem like a common complaint. I meant no harm. In fact, a guy willing to cut the front end off and then weld it back at a different angle has my respect. It is just that I would have welded it back on with a steeper rake given the option, not a shallower one. At least a few people have done that with Daytona's. But red frame V11's have good rake and trail number from the factory in my opinion.

Again, no disrespect meant. Instead, much respect for having the ability to do what you did. I just hope it does what you expect.

 

PS.... The entire GSXR front end was about $600. All it took to fit was different head bearings. I did upgrade to a modern Brembo radial master cylinder as well. That was another $350. All in all well worth the money.

[dave]

No disrespect taken. I am new to this site and to Guzzis in general... and for for all anyone here knows I could be a complete nutter with a hacksaw and soldering iron in hand By vagueness I mean at above legal highway speeds it tended to wander... add abrupt throttle changes and some bumpy sweepers and voila! wobble. (all after setting up the chassis, albeit not professionally). Now it feels planted even with some hamfisted attempts at upsetting the thing. And it still feels happy to transition. The understeer on corner exits was rear tire pressure.... and yes, I feel stupid

 

 

 

[Johan]

Interesting story, struggling with similar poor handling of 99 V11 sport. Red frame. Sport 1100 I have drives so much better straight as an arrow and steady in curves (with hyperpro front springs). The V11 is stock, thought it was the tires, but now on new Pirelli Angels (160 rear) still scary in curves (falling in the curve).

Sport 1100 also has Angels but is doing very well in the curves. Maybe you have a point here with adapting steering head.. (last resort it will be -not that I'm afraid of the surgery, when tig welded no problem at all regarding the safety of the bike).

 

Well, good to read I am not the only one who has problems with the V11. Will ventilate whatever I find when I get this solved. (need time...)

[GuzziMoto]

In my experience the most likely contributors to a bad handling V11 are bad/mis-adjusted steering head bearings and a steering dampener that has gone bad. A bad dampener can make the bike wobble or skittish.

Next up worn or wrong size tires. In fact the early bikes came from the factory with a tire too big for the rear 4.5" rim. At least a few people have switched to a 160 rear and had good results.

There are many other possible options, loose motor/trans mounts, etc., but fixing should not require cutting the frame. Almost all V11's seem to handle just fine, it is in fact one of the positive aspects of the bike. Therefore it stands to reason that if yours does not handle right then something is not right with the way it is set up.