early frame v11/ Rake change

[Johan]

Hope you are right, but Dave has a point here.

 

Already have the 160 tyre, new tires, different brand, tested on my other Guzzi. Steering head is fine, steering damper is fine, new wheel bearings, all tiptop.

 

So if it is the setup, I will experiment this summer, Dave still has a point that it is more sensitive than oter Guzzis just by different frame geometric..

 

Anyway I was pleased to read how it worked out for Dave as it gives a good view on the problem, no matter what way you solve it.

 

Food for thought.

[rocker59]

My two spine-frame bikes reward a smooth hand and the proper tire for the job.

 

The comment about cracking a walnut with a sledgehammer seems about right to me.

[dave]

I was recently at the Wash. D.C. motorcycle show wandering around the area where the new Norton, a Ducati and the Moto Guzzi cafe were displayed. There was a small group lingering around the cafe, no doubt admiring its proportion, when one of them said something like "I don't understand the hub-bub about Guzzis they seem underpowered and heavy compared to their rivals." This resulted in the poor fool being verbally pummeled by the group which were all loyal guzzisti.

It didn't matter what he said, only that it was not positive.

 

This site has to be the best at what it does that I have come across... and the members awareness of their machines as well. But I think it could be better acknowledged that Moto Guzzis and V11 specifically have room for improvement (like any bike). All that I want to say is that with or without a sledgehammer, my nut is open, and it is f**king delicious.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Dave, I find this thread very interesting.

My V11 Sport feels like it wants to flop into a corner, especially at lower speeds, is that what you describe as pushing?

I am running Pilot Road II front and rear and my head bearings are new and tight.

 

At the Deep Woods Campout last year I watched a young lady with a fairly modern bike, not sure which model unclamp the triple trees

to let the fork tubes slide up about 2 inches. I think she was doing it for the same reason to make a rake change and improve handling

rather than just lowering the bike.

I used to ride a Vincent that allowed you to change the rake between 3 settings in a couple of seconds by rotating an eccentric bushing.

[luhbo]

Interesting story, struggling with similar poor handling of 99 V11 sport. Red frame. Sport 1100 I have drives so much better straight as an arrow and steady in curves (with hyperpro front springs). The V11 is stock, thought it was the tires, but now on new Pirelli Angels (160 rear) still scary in curves (falling in the curve).

Sport 1100 also has Angels but is doing very well in the curves. Maybe you have a point here with adapting steering head.. (last resort it will be -not that I'm afraid of the surgery, when tig welded no problem at all regarding the safety of the bike).

 

Well, good to read I am not the only one who has problems with the V11. Will ventilate whatever I find when I get this solved. (need time...)

 

 

Falling into the curves is just and only a matter of inapropriate steering head adjustment (broken frames, nearly lost engines and other bullshit excluded). In 2006 I 'lost' nearly a complete season until I finaly got there. Or of a well worn Michelin, maybe, but not of the red frame geometry itself.

If one thinks that this frame was nervous he should let down the rear (reduce preload) and rise the front by pushing down the fork .5 or even 1cm. It's a smooth bike, also even highly packed at WOT in long bends at +-200.

That's how I experience my V11, it has nothing to do with 'Guzzi is faultless per se'. And for 1100 Sports going straight - I know of more but 1 people who exactly that do not like and either went for short frames or cut/welded the heads of the long ones in exactly the opposite direction.

 

Hubert

[luhbo]

.. and my head bearings are new and tight...

 

They shouldn't be tight. Loose them so that you can hear or feel a faint movement, then you're on the safe side. A loose head bearing will ruin the bearing, but not your driving.

 

Hubert

[dave]

An alternative is to take the weight off the front wheel, slowly tighten the steering bearing tension nut while checking for binding by moving the handlebars. When binding is encountered, back the nut off just enough to allow the bars to move freely.

[GuzziMoto]

Dave, I find this thread very interesting.

My V11 Sport feels like it wants to flop into a corner, especially at lower speeds, is that what you describe as pushing?

I am running Pilot Road II front and rear and my head bearings are new and tight.

 

At the Deep Woods Campout last year I watched a young lady with a fairly modern bike, not sure which model unclamp the triple trees

to let the fork tubes slide up about 2 inches. I think she was doing it for the same reason to make a rake change and improve handling

rather than just lowering the bike.

I used to ride a Vincent that allowed you to change the rake between 3 settings in a couple of seconds by rotating an eccentric bushing.

It sounds like she was doing the opposite to what they are doing to their Guzzi's. She was dropping the front to steepen the rake and slightly increase the weight on the front. Dave cut and welded his frame so that the rake was less steep and the front tire has even less weight on it (probably not a large difference but likely more of a difference then the lady dropping the front of her bike a few mm).

Another thing that makes a huge difference with regard to how the bike handles and especially the tendency to drop in to corners or require steady pressure to hold down into a corner is tire air pressure. Higher air pressure will cause a bike to feel like it wants to fall into a corner (it will) and low air pressure will make the bike require pressure on the bars to hold it down into the corner.

If you want to cut and weld your V11 to make it steer slower that is up to you. But I would suggest you properly set up you bike first. If a V11 is not handling well then it is not set up correctly or something is wrong. They work well as built. Much like an SV 650.

[luhbo]

 

... An alternative is to take the weight off the front wheel, slowly tighten the steering bearing tension nut while checking for binding by moving the handlebars. When binding is encountered, back the nut off just enough to allow the bars to move freely.

 

Binding is a bit vaguely defined with the above. Therefore, if you want to have a little chance to get it right you should first remove everything what is similar to binding, means snakes, cabel harnesses, heavy wheels and brake shoes, things like that. In theory the above mentioned is right of course, in fact I always had too tight bearings this way.

One reason can be that the bearing seats are not necessarily perfectly round, or parallel to each other, can't say. These at least are the places where the 'frame doctors' start their voodoo stuff. Having the thing a little bit on the loose side for me worked perfectly so far.

But as always: to each his own.

 

Hubert

[dave]

A sloppy head-bearing can cost you your life when it is the cause of a death-wobble.... and I feel " listening" a tad bit more "vague".

[Kiwi_Roy]

Did I say my bike doesn't handle well?

I am very happy with the way it behaves at high speed even on bummpy bends.

I definately have to push steer at speed, perhaps the feeling it want's to

drop into a bend at low speed is just a reflection of my riding ability.

When I said the head bearings are tight I should have been more specific,

what I meant was, the bearings aren't loose as in worn out and rattley,

Not at all like the ones I took out

Just nipped up like you would the tapered rollers on a car wheel.

 

I would love for someone to show me how to properly set up the suspension

that's something I have never been shown how to go about.

[GuzziMoto]

Wasn't saying your bike does not handle well, just commenting to you that what you observed was someone doing the opposite (in a less permanent way) of what some here are doing/talking of doing.

For those that observe handling issues in their bikes I would suggest that they first get everything correctly set up and working.

[luhbo]

A sloppy head-bearing can cost you your life when it is the cause of a death-wobble.... and I feel " listening" a tad bit more "vague".

 

... that's why they call it death-wobble I guess But no need to argue here. When I checked lorry wheel bearings on a weekly basis once this was the proper method. Screw in the bearings until you feel the wheel going locked, then loosen 45° and fix the nut. Easy thing. Some good time ago we discussed here what adjusting method the fellows down in Mandello would use for this task. Besides avoiding any grease in this process they obviously get the rest of it working astonishing well. One had the idea they might use a spring balance attached to one fork leg and then torque the bearing down until moving the fork shows the proper force (or responding hinge moment). I mean, you normaly can't tell a badly paid line worker "just make it right", they need some objective guideline.

 

hubert

[Lucky Phil]

A sloppy head-bearing can cost you your life when it is the cause of a death-wobble.... and I feel " listening" a tad bit more "vague".

 

... that's why they call it death-wobble I guess But no need to argue here. When I checked lorry wheel bearings on a weekly basis once this was the proper method. Screw in the bearings until you feel the wheel going locked, then loosen 45° and fix the nut. Easy thing. Some good time ago we discussed here what adjusting method the fellows down in Mandello would use for this task. Besides avoiding any grease in this process they obviously get the rest of it working astonishing well. One had the idea they might use a spring balance attached to one fork leg and then torque the bearing down until moving the fork shows the proper force (or responding hinge moment). I mean, you normaly can't tell a badly paid line worker "just make it right", they need some objective guideline.

 

hubert

There is a definite difference between the adjustment of a tapered bearing when used on a lorry or automotive wheel application and that of a steering head bearing on a motorcycle.When adjusting for a "wheel" application then slightly loose is preferable to slightly tight.This is because of the heat generated by the spinning bearing in that application.

On a motorcycle steering head heat generation due to rotation is not an issue and the focus is on zero play or slack without to much drag or tightness.

So to sum up tapered bearings....for automotive wheel....er on the side of play and for motorcycle steering heads......er on the side of zero play or slightly tight.Steering head bearings should be adjusted so they "never" have any play

Ciao

[Gio]

I mean, you normaly can't tell a badly paid line worker "just make it right", they need some objective guideline.

 

hubert

 

Perhaps a length of al dente pasta wrapped around one of the fork legs, should be able to tug the forks one way, and then the other without breaking if properly adjusted ..?

 

Apologies in advance for the flippant comment. I've always gone with the adjust until bind, and then back off a tad method also.

 

Gio