GuzziMoto Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 If you don't like it that is your choice, No, my post was saying the opposite. I bought it because it looks good (mostly good but not completely great from all viewpoints). That comment was not directed at you (or anyone else in particular), it was directed at the premise of this thread (as I understand it) which was that current Guzzis are not as desirable as the older ones.
GuzziMoto Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 I am going to resist trying to explain what I know of frame design (which may be more then some but clearly not as much as others) but let me try to shed a little light on it. A motorcycle frames primary loads are not compressive. They are torsional and lateral. A straight line is more resistant to compression, but not to torsional or lateral loads. A diamond would be a good shape for a motorcycle frame, especially if it is a 3D diamond. That is not too far from the shape that a Griso frame has when you factor in the engine/trans as a stressed member. I am not saying that a Griso frame is perfect, state of the art, or that you could not improve on it. But it is a more rigid frame the previous Guzzi's including the Tonti and Spine frame. The shape of it is not dictated by rigidity needs alone but also to fit around the engine and allow for other components like the gas tank and alternator. A spine frame concept is nice but in order to get the rigidity of the Griso frame the cross section of the spine would need to be dramatically increased. With a spine frame that large you would not have room for the fuel tank (maybe you could put the fuel in the frame ala' Buell) and alternator (the alternator would likely not fit even without the increase in spine cross section). The Griso frame works well for what it is. The weak area appears to be the swing arm pivot area which is no where near as stout as the same area on the V11 and everyone seems to think that is the weak area for that frame. It may be but I am not so sure.
rocker59 Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 If they'd asked me.... I sure think I'd have developed upon the spine-frame. Maybe go alloy. Definitely go bigger. Put fuel in it. Use an improved/stronger version of the MGS-01 style rear swingarm/suspension. Leave the alternator on the crank nose of the 1200-8V. Offer the 8V engine in destroked 940cc guise. "950 LeMans"! That would be MGS-01 v2.0 But they didn't ask me...
GuzziMoto Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 If they'd asked me.... I sure think I'd have developed upon the spine-frame. Maybe go alloy. Definitely go bigger. Put fuel in it. Use an improved/stronger version of the MGS-01 style rear swingarm/suspension. Leave the alternator on the crank nose of the 1200-8V. Offer the 8V engine in destroked 940cc guise. "950 LeMans"! That would be MGS-01 v2.0 But they didn't ask me... I'm with you. While I know the Griso frame is more rigid then a V11 frame I would love to have seen how much further the spine frame concept could have gone. Buell did the same thing to me, I had a tube frame X-1 and they stopped building those. They switched to an aluminum perimeter frame (with fuel in the frame) that was undoubtably more rigid then the tube frame. But for a street bike I preferred the dynamics of the tube frame bike. An aluminum spine frame with a large cross section is a project I dream of on a regular basis. Incorporate the fuel into the main section and the airbox into the rear cross piece. Just need to figure out how to shorten the package. I definitely would prefer that to a Breva or Stelvio or even Griso.
Trevini Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 Don't forget, of course, that one of the things that is affecting the frame designs either current or past, is the orientation of the V twin. It's used as a stressed member (especially in the spine frame) and compared to the rest of the crowd, points the wrong way. It seems to me that the very thing that gives a Guzzi it's character is also the thing that hampers it. Don't get me wrong, I love mine and wouldn't have it any other way. In reality, how much difference would an average road rider notice if the frame design was the ultimate? If everything was perfect on the bike, or very near, surely it would handle very well, go very fast and be generally very efficient at everything. Add all that together and you get bland and boring. Ok, a sports bike is never going to be boring due to the sheer performance on offer, but it's often been said that it's too easy to go stupid fast on modern 1 litre sports bikes. At real world speeds and riding conditions it will certainly feel bland, or maybe clinical would be a better word to describe it? A slower, non perfect bike is always going to be more entertaining and have more character to ride. It's the imperfections that we find endearing. Do we really want it perfect?
Guzzirider Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 The Ipothesis- latest creation from Rossopuro. I like it but it looks like a very long wheelbase- I'm guessing it is based on a Griso 8V and the wheelbase is standard albeit exaggerated in looks by the lack of rear mudguard / number plate hanger.
Baldini Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 ...An aluminum spine frame with a large cross section is a project I dream of on a regular basis.... holdfast to your dreams & they may yet come true...
GuzziMoto Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 If you look closely at the TB design, it appears to be a cast twin spar design. I have not seen detailed photos of it but in the photo you posted you can see the webbing on the back of the far side spar. Maybe the two spars connect in the v along the bottom, I can't tell. That design is certainly innovative, but clearly it is not designed by someone who understands structural engineering as much as it is designed by a stylist (TB). I hope they have buried that design but if they evolve it to where it is a well thought out design then great. But as it stands it is more a statement about creative thinking then it is a good design. But improve the structural rigidity of it and get rid of all the Foo Foo crap and it could be a good thing. Or not.
belfastguzzi Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 I am not found of Guzzi's current line up, but they are selling more bikes now then they have in most of their past. That has to be a good thing. The UK is an exception- I understand that Guzzi sales plummeted last year. Maybe due to a combination of poor dealers, high prices, recession and the fact that performance seems more of a factor when choosing a bike over here. I guess the question is will the current line up of bikes keep sales at a healthy level worldwide for the future? I understand the UK performance was 357 units sold when the target was 650. New motorcycle registrations in Europe decreased 8.9% in 2011, reaching its lowest level in a decade. And with the state of the economy in Europe, things might get worse. According to provisional numbers released by the European Association of Motorcycle Manufacturers, Europeans registered 1.72 million motorcycles, scooters and mopeds in 2011, down from 1.89 million registrations in 2010. By comparison,the U.S. motorcycle market is showing signs of recovery, with 2011 sales increasing slightly by 0.3% compared to 2010′s figures.
Mad Farquhar Posted January 26, 2012 Posted January 26, 2012 Anyway - to the original question - yes. The present Guzzi styling just isn't. What's this nonsense of a V twin with the exhausts on one side? I mean to say V TWIN = separate exhausts. Is Piaggios aim to have us ride them side saddle or something? Its all gone a bit gay of late.
GuzziMoto Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 What's this nonsense of a V twin with the exhausts on one side? Power
Mad Farquhar Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 Foo foo crap? This sort of detail puts >me
68C Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 Those silencer ends are exactly the kind of thing I hate on a bike, they are pretending to look like something rather than being it. Dishonest.
Guzzirider Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 There ia design challenge for modern bikes because of all the emissions crap. Some manufacturers are good at hiding it, others very poor. The pipes on new Kwackers are hideously huge, and the silencers on the Griso and 1200 Sport are not much better. I guess most manfacturers know that the first thing the new owner will do is swap the pipe for something lighter, and more svelte. That may well have to stop if the proposed EU anti-tampering regs come into force.
belfastguzzi Posted January 27, 2012 Posted January 27, 2012 I guess most manfacturers know that the first thing the new owner will do is swap the pipe for something lighter, and more svelte. That may well have to stop if the proposed EU anti-tampering regs come into force. I got MOT reminder/info in post yesterday. I see that a check that the cat is in place is part of the test now. So oe systems will need to be kept and swapped on to pass the test if (like me) you've installed a new system without cat.
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