Heavy Duty Wiring Kit help with None-Start Issues

[GuzziYang]

Hi Guys,

 

Just want to share with you guys on upgrading your wiring kit for or V11. I bought the Motolectric wiring kit http://www.motolectric.com/hicap.all.html and hope to prevent the none-start issue once and for all, althought it only happen to me once since I own the bike and it happen with a new battery.

 

He sale two kits for Moto Guzzi's, one for Pre 2000 and one post 2000 models. When I got the post 2000 Guzzi kit the wires were 4" inches too long on both the postive and negative wires and the grouding connecting to engine case was drilled for 10mm instead of 8mm bolt. The stock positive wire should be 21" inches from battery to starter motor and the negative wire should be 18-1/2" inches.

 

I do have to sent my wires along with Motolectric's back for cutback to the proper length. He was puzzle as he never have issue with length on post 2000 Guzzi bikes so my guess is that he never sold it to V11 owners. My bike is 2002 V11 LeMans if that helps.

 

Once I got the revised wiring back, it was a 20 min job to put on. Motolectric made both wires 21" inches so the negative were still about 2" inches too long but workable. The new wires are so thick that its vary hard to bend or route in tight spaces so proper length is critical. Put some die-electric grease and connect the wires.

 

It suppose to cured cold hard to start symptoms but honestly I did not noticed any improvement with the new wiring kit. Mine usually take 3-4 clicks to start when cold and its about the same with the new wiring kit. I didn't buy the kit for improve starting but better connection and grouding and to eliminate that issue from future electrical faults.

 

It cost me $50 USD so its $25 per wire and if it cure the none-start issue then its worth it but since I just put on the kit the jury is still out.

 

 

 

 

[fotoguzzi]

What makes you think those wires are causing a no start condition? maybe it's the dielectric grease which is non conductive.

 

Dielectric grease is a nonconductive grease. As such, it does not enhance the flow of electrical current. Dielectric grease is, however, often applied to electrical connectors, particularly those containing rubber gaskets, as a means of lubricating and sealing rubber portions of the connector.

 

The widest use of dielectric grease is in high-voltage connections associated with spark plugs. The grease is applied to the rubber boot of the plug wire. This helps the rubber boot slide onto the ceramic insulator of the plug. The grease also acts to seal the rubber boot, while at the same time preventing the rubber from becoming stuck to the ceramic. Generally spark plugs are located in areas of high temperature, and the grease is formulated to withstand the temperature range expected.

 

Another common use of dielectric grease is on the rubber mating surfaces or gaskets of multi-pin electrical connectors used in automotive and marine engines. The grease again acts as a lubricant and a sealant on the nonconductive mating surfaces of the connector. It is not recommended to be applied to the actual electrical conductive contacts of the connector because it could interfere with the electrical signals passing through the connector.

 

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Your Non Start issue sounds more like an issue with the solenoid wiring, this can be easily verified with a jumper.

Please take a look at the starter drawings I just posted then look at your schematic and trace out the route the solenoid wiring takes.

There are so many variations in the way Guzzis are wired, even in 2002 some solenoids were still wired through the ignition switch which is

plain stupid IMHO, can you scan your diagram to post?

 

I assume you have eliminated the problem with the connector under the tank that requires moving the bars from lock to lock?

 

Dielectric grease is non conductive, I don't know any grease that is but it helps the electrical connection by banning air and moisture

that would cause corrosion, I prefer plain old vaseline myself, but I'm cheap

 

Update Rant:

I looked at all Carl's drawings for 2000, 2002, Every one of the solenoids is wired through the ignition switch, I don't know what Luigi was at the time but obviously he didn't realize that the starter solenoid would like to pull about 50 Amps for the split second it takes to pull in.

Even 0.2 Ohms of resistance would cut it's pull power by half.

I suspect the additional wire alone is at least 0.1 Ohms, never mind the switch contacts after a year or two.

Compare one of these 2000, 2 schematics with the 1999 V11 Sport schematic which doesn't go near the switch.

It's not easy to get a feel for how much voltage is lost in the circuit because if it is able to pull in the current drops to less than 10 too quick to see on a meter.

End of Rant

 

The way to really get a feel for Voltage drop is by disconnecting the main power lead at the solenoid (or battery post), measure between the small trigger wire and chassis while you press start. Without the main feed the heavy current is maintained as long as it takes to pop the 15 Amp fuse,

(tuning for maximum smoke)

[rbt1548]

Regarding the wiring being stiff and difficult to bend, there is a thread on starter wires on the Norton forum,

basically it suggests using welding cable gauge 6AWG it is made up of many strands of wire and is very pliable and gives a good cross sectional area to transfer the current. I did make a set and they are very easy to make by crimping on the connections and insulating them with shrink wrap.

Also they do work, Norton starter motors are notoriously slow to turn over but I have noticed a big improvement since changing the cables.

The bonus of doing them yourself is, it will not be as expensive and you can cut them to whatever size you need.

 

6th post down from link below

 

http://www.accessnorton.com/post26121.html?hilit='welding wire'#p26121

[OldButNotDead]

Update Rant:

I looked at all Carl's drawings for 2000, 2002, Every one of the solenoids is wired through the ignition switch, I don't know what Luigi was at the time but obviously he didn't realize that the starter solenoid would like to pull about 50 Amps for the split second it takes to pull in.

 

Damn it's nice being spoon fed; thank you. I just dug out my CA schematic and noticed it's for a 1999 model. My 2003ish owner's manual tells the other, less happy story.

 

Sorry if I've missed this, but is the solution a fused hotwire to pin 30 on the starter relay?

 

I occasionally need to thumb the start switch more than once, and none of my attempts to rejuvenate switches/contacts/starter have cured it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

 

Damn it's nice being spoon fed; thank you. I just dug out my CA schematic and noticed it's for a 1999 model. My 2003ish owner's manual tells the other, less happy story.

 

Sorry if I've missed this, but is the solution a fused hotwire to pin 30 on the starter relay?

 

I occasionally need to thumb the start switch more than once, and none of my attempts to rejuvenate switches/contacts/starter have cured it.

 

Yes, you can power it up from a new fuse or re-wire fuse 3 from a hot.

 

Here's a mod for a 2000 Jackal

Start Circuit Mods.pdf

[OldButNotDead]

 

Damn it's nice being spoon fed; thank you. I just dug out my CA schematic and noticed it's for a 1999 model. My 2003ish owner's manual tells the other, less happy story.

 

Sorry if I've missed this, but is the solution a fused hotwire to pin 30 on the starter relay?

 

I occasionally need to thumb the start switch more than once, and none of my attempts to rejuvenate switches/contacts/starter have cured it.

 

Yes, you can power it up from a new fuse or re-wire fuse 3 from a hot.

 

Here's a mod for a 2000 Jackal

Start Circuit Mods.pdf

On my list for such time as the garage warms up. When it comes to the line between "inspired" and "unhelpful variability", Italian design often stumps me.

[gstallons]

I had to do a similar modification the other day on a Sullair air compressor w/a John Deere powerlant. The solenoid would click, but it would NOT start. I installed a relay in the circuit where the starter button energized the relay instead of engaging the solenoid.

The B+ went directly from the battery to the relay to the solenoid.

With this (MG) mod you are taking the ign. switch and 4 connectors out of circuit. This mod KiwiRoy is suggesting should fix your problem.

[docc]

Even after all this time, the more I read the more I marvel that my Sport runs at all (let alone well).

[GuzziYang]

Thanks for all the comments guys, I'm not a electrical expert as I thought the thicker wiring would flow better and reduce resistance as I read somewere that some Guzzi bike have a sensor that won't allow the bike to start if the voltage drop below certain level, so I thought the wiring could help with that.

 

Just an update, when I first intalled the new wires and fire it up, it did not improved starting time as it still take 3-4 cranks to fire up but after each day it gets better, the second day it only take 2-3 crank to fire it up and today it fire up first crank which never happens before. I didn't change anything and not sure why it improves starting progressively and not immediately is beyond me.

 

Regarding dielectric grease, every mechainc, car or bike I'd talked to in the US suggest to put some coating on contacts and connectors and its to prevent corrosion which will cause resistance built up. Maybe its a cultural thing? the mechanics in US believes in using dielectric grease and Euro guys don't? The Motolectric wiring kit come with a pack of dieletric grease so its pretty standard practice here. I use to have a Yamaha XZ550 Vision and corrosion in the wiring buit up resistance/heat to a point that the plastic connectors melted fusing to each other, utter mess..... from that point on, any old bike I got I grease all the contacts I could find in the wiring loom and so far no issues yet (fingers crossed).

 

The bypass of 15amp fuse seem like the logical solution so its my next thing to do on the bike. The previous owner did re route the wire that connects to right start control switch and I could still see the kink were it binds.

 

Anybody try the headlight bypass wiring kit to improved light output? feedback?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes, increasing the voltage by 1% makes about a 4% increase in light output. Eliminating the tiny wires that go to and from the High/Low switch make a significant difference.

I found this formula somewhere in an old textbook

Brightness ~ V ^ (4.3)

 

Here's a simple circuit using just one relay. The headlight on my bike also goes through the start relay, some just go through the headlight relay.

For a relay use the same type that is installed in the bike, you don't need a base just two different size spade connector.

I also ran a new ground from the lamp socket back to the chassis under the tank.

Headlight Relay.pdf

Energize the relay to select the other beam.

 

I have another circuit inspired by Raz, this has a relay in each beam with diodes to back up the new fuse, if it blows the new fuse the original fuse will power lamp through the diode.

Headlight Relays.pdf

 

Have fun

 

Roy

 

PS, if you find after adding relay/s that the battery doesn't seem to fully charge any more I can explain that.

[Chuck]

Update Rant:

I looked at all Carl's drawings for 2000, 2002, Every one of the solenoids is wired through the ignition switch, I don't know what Luigi was at the time but obviously he didn't realize that the starter solenoid would like to pull about 50 Amps for the split second it takes to pull in.

 

Damn it's nice being spoon fed; thank you. I just dug out my CA schematic and noticed it's for a 1999 model. My 2003ish owner's manual tells the other, less happy story.

 

Sorry if I've missed this, but is the solution a fused hotwire to pin 30 on the starter relay?

 

I occasionally need to thumb the start switch more than once, and none of my attempts to rejuvenate switches/contacts/starter have cured it.

 

That may very well be the solenoid itself that is sticking. Pull it off and clean it. Betcha a dollar that will cure it.

[rex007can]

"it did not improved starting time as it still take 3-4 cranks to fire up but after each day it gets better, the second day it only take 2-3 crank to fire it up and today it fire up first crank which never happens before. I didn't change anything and not sure why it improves starting progressively and not immediately is beyond me."

 

 

 

It may be because the new wires improved your charging circuit. Your battery may have been drained, and the wires may not have been efficient enough to recharge the battery properly. Now, you would have a fully charged battery. Which would explain everything.

 

Just my 0.02$