Charge and Neutral lights when hot

[AndyH]

Andy,

It will take you 5 minutes to add a ground to the regulator.

The regulator is bolted to the horn bracket, the horn bracket to the chassis and neither have been prepared to act as a ground. Over the past 12 years I'm sure the connection through this nefarious path on your bike has deteriorated somewhat.

The factory provides a small black wire, I think it goes all the way back to the battery but this is way too small for the heavy current flowing.

(the Positive wire is quite fat with a 30 Amp fuse so why does Luigi think all that current can get back through a tiny black wire?)

 

Actually the ground wire is even more important for the following

The regulator doesn't regulate the battery voltage directly, all it does is look at the Voltage between it's black wire (of the black white pair) and it's case

If this Voltage is

if the Voltage > 13.8 turn the charging Off

So you can see if there is a resistance in the ground, even 0.2 Ohms the Voltage drop at 30 Amps (0.2 x 30 = 6) gives the regulator a false idea of where the battery is at charge wise. You could loose several Volts in the positive wire and it would have almost no effect.

Just run a short wire from a holding bolt to one of the timing cover screws, the engine is a better path than any copper wire. Scrape the metal and add a bit of grease to prevent corrosion.

 

Also, if you have a multimeter with a diode test range check between each of the regulator yellow to red wires, both should read ~0.5 Volts, if one is open circuit you only get half the available charging.

 

And finally, take the plastic cover off your alternator and inspect where the yellow wires are soldered to the coils, they break off there sometimes. The alternator is a very simple device, unless you see obvious sign of burning don't replace it and expect a fix.

Thanks Roy, all really useful stuff.

I've multimetered the Alternator, even run it hot and the AC voltage output is right on all revs (have to guess as Tacho's knackered but looks/sounds about right). Resistance is also by the book which is what I feared might have gone wrong if the insulation breaks down when hot.

So I'm looking to the reg now and will test as advised.

Cheers

Andy

[mznyc]

Ive ignored electrical quirks before on other bikes in the past only to have them bite me in the most inopportune place/time.Personally,I wont do that again,but if you dont care,......

I spent 5 days in the middle of nowhere Tennessee cause I ignored intermittent starting problems for months.Finally died on a Friday night of a holiday weekend.Bad reg,and got home almost a week late.

Was in Skye in March and there's no way Id want to be riding a bike in a remote Glen in bad weather,and no cell service if I had any doubt.If your not a 100% sure you got it,,...well,you know,,....

Roy will guide you the right way

[AndyH]

Ive ignored electrical quirks before on other bikes in the past only to have them bite me in the most inopportune place/time.Personally,I wont do that again,but if you dont care,......

I spent 5 days in the middle of nowhere Tennessee cause I ignored intermittent starting problems for months.Finally died on a Friday night of a holiday weekend.Bad reg,and got home almost a week late.

Was in Skye in March and there's no way Id want to be riding a bike in a remote Glen in bad weather,and no cell service if I had any doubt.If your not a 100% sure you got it,,...well,you know,,....

Roy will guide you the right way

Yeah, I know I was lucky...

[Kiwi_Roy]

 

I've multimetered the Alternator, even run it hot and the AC voltage output is right on all revs (have to guess as Tacho's knackered but looks/sounds about right). Resistance is also by the book which is what I feared might have gone wrong if the insulation breaks down when hot.

So I'm looking to the reg now and will test as advised.

Cheers

Andy

********From an earlier post*********

Shortly after setting off the headlight stopped working, the side light continued to work...

Then the brake light stopped...

Then indicators...

Then after 15 miles the engine.

 

Check for 12 Volts at the regulator's black wire (of the black/white pair) with the key on. This is the reference line from the battery it also supplies the power to make the regulator work and the tacho supply.

 

Your earlier post talks about the headlight failing, the black regulator wire just happens to be fed from the headlight relay so no power to the headlight could also mean no charging. For that reason if you pull the headlight relay thinking you will save the battery you are defeating the purpose.

Check the relay base contacts to make sure they have a tight grip on the pins, any resistance in this circuit can lead to overcharging and a smoked regulator.

 

My bike suffered from weak charging when I first bought it, this turned out to be one of the diodes inside letting go, have you tested yours yet?

There is a simple (if not pretty) fix.

[AndyH]

Check for 12 Volts at the regulator's black wire (of the black/white pair) with the key on. This is the reference line from the battery it also supplies the power to make the regulator work and the tacho supply.

 

Your earlier post talks about the headlight failing, the black regulator wire just happens to be fed from the headlight relay so no power to the headlight could also mean no charging. For that reason if you pull the headlight relay thinking you will save the battery you are defeating the purpose.

Check the relay base contacts to make sure they have a tight grip on the pins, any resistance in this circuit can lead to overcharging and a smoked regulator.

 

My bike suffered from weak charging when I first bought it, this turned out to be one of the diodes inside letting go, have you tested yours yet?

There is a simple (if not pretty) fix.

Now it's the weekend I've had a chance to run through a number of tests.

Both hot and cold the Alternator seems to pass muster well enough on all my multimeter tests. I've tested the Reg/Rectifier too (cold) on Multimeter 'diode' setting and it all seems to be OK too with the right readings.

 

As charging seems to consistently and gradually drop as the engine gets hotter and hotter and the Alternator doesn't seem to register anything different at different running temperatures, I have to conclude that engine heat is compromising the Regulator/Rectifier or charging connections (which I've run through and checked and cleaned).

 

However, as my time before travelling is running out and having already suffered a number of exhaust burns when testing the Alternator at different tempratures, my appetite for more hot testing on the Reg/Rectifier has diminished somewhat and I've caved in and ordered a replacement part.

 

Thanks Roy for the Diode bypass suggestion you PMed but the lack of evidence of diode faults when cold means I can't locate a faulty diode internally to bypass. My basic skills with electrics mean I'm concerned I'll dig myself a deeper hole if I try to extemporise. Sorry for wimping out there!

• I've checked, cleaned and tightened any connections that might be affected by engine heat.
  
• I've checked all the relays: good, clean, shiny and tight connections there.
  
• I've put in a short and beefy (27 amp rated) earth strap from the reg mounting bolt to the timing case screw as suggested to supplement the original wire
  

 

I'll swap in the replacement reg/rectifier due to arrive next week. If the problem remains after that, I have sourced a second-hand alternator which I'll swap in and check again.

 

If I've still got a problem after that, I'll travel with a car battery strapped on my Ventura rack .

 

Andy

[Kiwi_Roy]

The weekend I've had a chance to run through a number of tests.

Both hot and cold the Alternator seems to pass muster well enough on all my multimeter tests. I've tested the Reg/Rectifier too (cold) on Multimeter 'diode' setting and it all seems to be OK too with the right readings.

 

[*] I've checked, cleaned and tightened any connections that might be affected by engine heat.

[*] I've checked all the relays: good, clean, shiny and tight connections there.

[*] I've put in a short and beefy (27 amp rated) earth strap from the reg mounting bolt to the timing case screw as suggested to supplement the original wire

 

I'll swap in the replacement reg/rectifier due to arrive next week. If the problem remains after that, I have sourced a second-hand alternator which I'll swap in and check again.

 

Andy

It seems as though you have checked all the usual suspects but just as a reminder;

 

Your earlier post talks about the headlight failing, if you are riding with someone ask them to watch in the rear view for a while. As I said earlier No headlight might mean the headlight relay's dropped out = no charging.

You checked the connections where the yellow wires solder onto the alternator coils?

You added a proper ground strap, that's good, keep it with the new regulator.

After the bike has been running for a while check the 30 Amp fuse (if you have one) sometimes they get a poor connection and overheat.

 

It seems as though your diodes are ok so perhaps it is toast. If it's still working but just low in Voltage by adding a diode in series with the black wire you can fool it into thinking the battery is low and it will boost it up by another 0.6 Volts.

 

Good luck with your new regulator, be sure to post the results it all adds to the accomulated knowledge.

Cheers

Roy

[Kiwi_Roy]

Just another thought.

I think your new regulator will solve the problem but I still have a nagging thought about the headlight going out. If the headlight relay drops out the regulator looses the power it needs to turn on the SCRs.

 

 

BTW at the black wire you should read ~ 13.8V while back at the battery it will read ~14.3 - 14.5 this is because there's about 0.6 Volts drop between battery and the point where the regulator connects, this is caused by the headlight current.

If the headlight bulb is removed from the circuit you loose the benefit of the voltage drop.

Adding headlight relays powered by a new fuse from the battery makes for brighter headlights but weaker charging.

I talked another rider with headlight relays into adding a diode to the reference circuit, this boosted his battery back up to just over 14V

 

I rode around for a few days with my multimeter strapped to the tank connected to the black regulator wire, later I swapped it for a 12V LED taped to the steering damper bracket.

I finally convinced myself it was the regulator, that's when I pulled it apart to discover the melted diode lead. I also figured out how the regulator works, see attached.

 

Voltage Regulator.pdf

[AndyH]

Not looking good so far... I've replaced:

• regulator rectifier (it's a non OEM part without the black reference wire)*
  
• The alternator (used part)
  
• Relays 1 and 2
  

and I still have the battery light come on at tickover. I think it's running a bit rougher when the headlamp is on too but the headlamp does light.

 

* was a bit of a head scratcher to fit. Obtained from Gutsibits - Ed reports no returns from other customers.

I have earth straps to the engine and again from there to the battery.

I swapped in the original regulator rectifier, same symptoms.

In spite of all the mis-treatment it's endured, the battery still has enough juice to start (I know that was replaced last year and is good and strong).

 

I have to conclude it's probably

• not the regulator/rectifier,
  
• not the alternator,
  
• not the relays
  
• not the earthing
  

 

Not sure where to look next. Could the ECU be causing the problem?

 

AndyH

[Trevini]

Andy. What reg have you fitted? Is it the electrex 451 (i think). If so, I have one fitted to my Le Mans. I did an experiment when I fitted it. Wired in using the bike's standard wiring to pick up the reference voltage, It rarely did better than 13.8v measured at the battery. Wiring as per instructions i.e. straight to the battery, 14.2v. I also have an extra, heavy duty earth strap on the reg to the engine case. I don't have a battery warning lamp as such, as that was changed for a multi coloured LED unit, but it stays green (over 13.8v) all the time unless idling for a while with the lights on, in which case it drops back to yellow (11.8-13.8v).

 

Just a thought, what's the earth connection like on the clocks? It might pay to get the battery checked even though it's only a year old. I've known them to fail in as little as a couple of months.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Andy. What reg have you fitted? Is it the electrex 451 (i think). If so, I have one fitted to my Le Mans. I did an experiment when I fitted it. Wired in using the bike's standard wiring to pick up the reference voltage, It rarely did better than 13.8v measured at the battery. Wiring as per instructions i.e. straight to the battery, 14.2v. I also have an extra, heavy duty earth strap on the reg to the engine case. I don't have a battery warning lamp as such, as that was changed for a multi coloured LED unit, but it stays green (over 13.8v) all the time unless idling for a while with the lights on, in which case it drops back to yellow (11.8-13.8v).

 

Just a thought, what's the earth connection like on the clocks? It might pay to get the battery checked even though it's only a year old. I've known them to fail in as little as a couple of months.

 

 

Trevini may be onto something, I have no experience other than the Ducati one.

 

Can you tell us what the battery Voltage is?

The ECU has nothing to do with battery charging however if the voltage is too low it might cause it to missbehave, you can easily check that, I know for certain if the Voltage is very high it shuts the bike down to protect itself. Measure from the ECU case to the the fuse that supplies the ECU to the ECU case also from ECU case to pin 2 of the diagnostic connector, that should be zero Volts

Do you have a ground wire to the case of the ECU, pull it off and make sure it's actually connected - Ohms to chassis.

You still haven't explained why the headlight went out before.

 

Have you checked the 30 Amp fuseholder for a tight grip on the fuse, that's a known problem, check for voltage drop between the regulator red wire and the battery + terminal.

I assume you have cleaned the battery terminals and checked the ground connection behind the seat release key.

 

Measure your charging current

Simple Meter Shunt.pdf Sorry, I guess your wire sizes are different, if so I'll tell you how to figure the length.

 

If your meter has a 10 Amp range you might be able to read it directly, typically about 9 Amps from memory, you can measure that in series with the regulator red wire or pull the 30 Amp fuse and connect your meter there.

 

HOLD THE PRESS - you have cleaned your ignition switch contacts, that was a problem for mine, made the bike really hairy missing etc. I think the ECU relay was chattering. Flick the switch off and on a few times to see if it improves.

[AndyH]

Thanks Guys,

yes mine's the Electrex. Considering what you say it looks like poor connections and beefing and cleaning them up is the way to go next: fuses, relays, earth straps, ignitions switch.

 

Lots of stuff there for me to be getting on with: will get on with that tonight.

 

Andy

[AndyH]

Trevini may be onto something, I have no experience other than the Ducati one.

 

Can you tell us what the battery Voltage is?

The ECU has nothing to do with battery charging however if the voltage is too low it might cause it to missbehave, you can easily check that, I know for certain if the Voltage is very high it shuts the bike down to protect itself. Measure from the ECU case to the the fuse that supplies the ECU to the ECU case also from ECU case to pin 2 of the diagnostic connector, that should be zero Volts

Do you have a ground wire to the case of the ECU, pull it off and make sure it's actually connected - Ohms to chassis.

You still haven't explained why the headlight went out before.

 

Have you checked the 30 Amp fuseholder for a tight grip on the fuse, that's a known problem, check for voltage drop between the regulator red wire and the battery + terminal.

I assume you have cleaned the battery terminals and checked the ground connection behind the seat release key.

 

Measure your charging current

Simple Meter Shunt.pdf Sorry, I guess your wire sizes are different, if so I'll tell you how to figure the length.

 

If your meter has a 10 Amp range you might be able to read it directly, typically about 9 Amps from memory, you can measure that in series with the regulator red wire or pull the 30 Amp fuse and connect your meter there.

 

HOLD THE PRESS - you have cleaned your ignition switch contacts, that was a problem for mine, made the bike really hairy missing etc. I think the ECU relay was chattering. Flick the switch off and on a few times to see if it improves.

BTW Roy, I've looked through a load of your other posts on all things Electric and downnloaded and printed the PDFs - a major treasure trove you've created there.

Thanks

AndyH

[AndyH]

Andy. What reg have you fitted? Is it the electrex 451 (i think). If so, I have one fitted to my Le Mans. I did an experiment when I fitted it. Wired in using the bike's standard wiring to pick up the reference voltage, It rarely did better than 13.8v measured at the battery. Wiring as per instructions i.e. straight to the battery, 14.2v. I also have an extra, heavy duty earth strap on the reg to the engine case. I don't have a battery warning lamp as such, as that was changed for a multi coloured LED unit, but it stays green (over 13.8v) all the time unless idling for a while with the lights on, in which case it drops back to yellow (11.8-13.8v).

 

Just a thought, what's the earth connection like on the clocks? It might pay to get the battery checked even though it's only a year old. I've known them to fail in as little as a couple of months.

Thanks Trevini,

Will try wiring direct to the Battery with a good fat cable and fuse. I already created an extra earth strap to the clocks so I'm happy with that. As I said before, the battery easily seems to have the juice to start over and over again, even with the battery light coming on at tickover. I haven't needed to do an additional charge to keep it that way. If that's not where it could be going wrong, what sort of Battery check should I be looking at?

AndyH

[luhbo]

Andy,

as long as it's only the red indicator light that acts funny consider to either ignore it or stick a small piece of tape over it. These lights don't necessarily show you whether the battery gets charged or not. Mine for instance is on when it rains, at least it's on the next day then after a night of soaking/damping.

 

The charging system works well right off the factory btw. No real need to add cables and/or other things. There's, as so often, room for optimizations, sure, but usually people don't have the tools for proper wiring work - what then in most cases makes things worse, not better.

 

Hubert

 

What's Tick Over, by the way? It's the same as Idle?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Andy,

as long as it's only the red indicator light that acts funny consider to either ignore it or stick a small piece of tape over it. These lights don't necessarily show you whether the battery gets charged or not. Mine for instance is on when it rains, at least it's on the next day then after a night of soaking/damping.

 

The charging system works well right off the factory btw. No real need to add cables and/or other things. There's, as so often, room for optimizations, sure, but usually people don't have the tools for proper wiring work - what then in most cases makes things worse, not better.

 

Hubert

 

What's Tick Over, by the way? It's the same as Idle?

 

Hubert,

I agree with this, right out of the factory the regulator get's grounded to the horn bracket, the horn bracket gets grounded to the frame (not that Luigi cleans the paint off to make a good connection).

Ten years down the road however the regulator case is a little corroded, the bolts a little loose and the brackets starting to rust so now it has to rely on that tiny black wire to the battery negative terminal.

Just think about it, the same current that flows through the fat red wire and 30 Amp fuse to the battery Positive has to pass back through the tiny ground wire, why are the wires different size?

It's actually much worse for the ground, even the slightest resistance between the regulator case and the battery negative and you loose Voltage, for example 0.1 Ohms is enough to drop half a Volt at the battery. The Positive wire could drop a Volt or two and you would never know about it.

The regulator also suffers from sensing the Voltage after the headlight relay at a point about half a Volt lower than the battery, any additional drop such as a dirty relay contact and it's likely to overcharge and cook itself. Add headlight relays wired from the battery and it will under-charge because it's been set to expect the Voltage drop.

All I advocate is a short wire between the regulator case and a timing cover screw, from there it's like a super highway back to the battery.

 

The Ducati Energias set the Voltage at the regulator, not at the battery. If you look at the modern Guzzis the regulator is wired directly to the battery, positive and negative.

Rather than replace a failed Ducati I would go with something modern, I predict they won't have nearly the same failures the old ones do.