non starter

[stockport claret]

Went to start the V11 last week, fuel pump primed but no go. Thinking it may not have enough battery juice(bike not been used since May) put it on charge. Tried to start it today and no go. Pump prims, relays click but does not turn over. The relays are all new.

This happened a while ago and the RAC man showed me how to put a wire from the live battery terminal to the starter motor terminal? once its wire was disconnected. Tried this and low and behold it started. Switched it off reconnected the starter motor live wire and nothing . Also rev counter not working.

Help please, What should i be checking.

[mznyc]

I am not an electrical expert or novice but it could be these,

Bad solenoid

Bullet connectors under tank

Sidestand switch

Neutral switch

 

All fuses are good?

All neg connections are on batt?You didnt disconnect anything when putting on charger?

Hopefully the "Those who know more than me" will chime in,...

Michael

[docc]

Most likely culprit would be the "bullet" connectors from the clutch switch located under the left side of the tank. Try rotating the bars all the way to lock one way (try to start) then the other (try to start). Otherwise, put an ear to the clutch lever and listen for a tiny *click* as the lever is pulled (the switch sometimes just gets all gummed up).

 

headlights, horn, and brake light work?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I think Docc is right

 

As for the Tacho it's fed from the headlight relay, check if the headlights on

If not check to see if the start relay is a 5 pin variety

 

Guzzi_Wiring July 21 2010.pdf

 

The starter not working could also be the fuse feeding starter relay (Fuse 5 on mine), the relay would still click, this would also account for the tacho.

 

Note: Most bikes are wired a little different around the start and headlight relays.

[belfastguzzi]

Yeh, non-starting Guzzis,eh?

 

As above, check connectors and fuse.

Perhaps it could also be voltage drop due to the odd wiring system that Guzzi persist with. These bikes need a big kick to get them started and slightly low electic supply results in no start.

 

The starter solenoid itself requires a good supply, but this can be diminished by the odd wiring. Even the most modern models are suffering from this. People thought I was talking rubbish when I first reported this on the Griso, but for the past couple of years it's been reported world wide. It's a fact. the old Guzzis suffered from this - and as MG has not changed the start wiring route, the issue carrys on even to the current 'higher tech' models.

 

You say battery is good. Check all connectors as others say, not just for disconnection but also dirt, corrosion... The ultimate solution is to bypass the stock wiring that is routed through connectors and a starting switch that wouldn't normally carry a starting current. This means taking a feed from battery direct to the starter relay.

 

For some reason these bikes are susceptible to sticky starters/solenoids, more so than other 'normal' vehicles. The sticky solenoid is made worse by the poor electric supply and in turn its partial operation makes the demand on electric supply worse. Take the starter off to clean and lubricate both the starter shaft and the solenoid. This makes a big difference in ease of operation. While doing this, look out for any corrosion, metal tangs or other little bits of mechanical obstruction and clean them off.

 

For reliable starting on these bikes, it seems clear that the electric supply must be close to fully perfect and all aspects of mechanical contact and operation must be good and smooth.

 

Good luck with this. Just be glad you haven't got the added complexity, interference and non-diagnosibility non-fixibility (without any form of dealer service or Piaggio support available) of the current ECU and controls! I don't know what I'm going to do with my expensive heap of unreliability.

[AndyH]

I really don't have problems of this type at the moment but it's surely a matter of time...

 

So anyone got any views on this kit from Gutsibits: HICAP Starting Upgrade Kit?

 

Is this going to improve matters?

AndyH

[belfastguzzi]

I really don't have problems of this type at the moment but it's surely a matter of time...

 

So anyone got any views on this kit from Gutsibits: HICAP Starting Upgrade Kit?

 

Is this going to improve matters?

AndyH

 

It looks fairly irrelevant to me.

 

Yes, ensure that your ground connection is good, but replacing the cable is not the primary means of addressing the issue. Same with the live cable to the starter. It's not the problem. The best thing is to put in a direct wire to the start relay. For that you need a 20 amp fuse and a short piece of 15 amp cable or something similar as takes your fancy.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I really don't have problems of this type at the moment but it's surely a matter of time...

 

So anyone got any views on this kit from Gutsibits: HICAP Starting Upgrade Kit?

 

Is this going to improve matters?

AndyH

Slightly off topic rant

That's a rip off IMHO

Belfastguzzi hit the nail on the head though

Have you seen one schematic that shows how the solenoid is really wired?

 

On my 2001 VII Sport they finally got the wiring right then they reverted back to running the wiring through ignition switch. Most bikes can be improved with just a simple wiring change.

It should go Battery, Fuse, Start relay (30), Start relay (87), Start solenoid any time you see the start relay fed from the ignition switch it's just plain STUPID

 

Valeo Starter.pdf

 

Reading the original post again you say the rev counter is not working, that means the headlight relay is not picking up and BTW the bike will not be charging.

Guzzi Wiring - Simple.pdf

So my guess is fuse 5 is blown, If it looks ok pull the start relay and measure for Voltage between pin 30 of the socket and chassis, you should have 12 V there.

Some bikes are wired slightly different but either way the normally closed contact of the start relay powers either the coil or the 30 terminal of the headlight relay, The 87 contact of the headlight relay powers the tacho, Voltage regulator and the headlight Hi/Lo switch

 

PM sent

 

Roy

[belfastguzzi]

Hi Trev

 

ust wondering if you've had any progress with this?

I was going to ask have you tried the simple things yet, i.e. checked the fuse? However I see that Roy has added more detail and posted very interesting/useful diagrams and notes.

 

When posting earlier I should have said, 'if your V11 is wired like the modern bikes and the older ones that gave the same problems.... then it would be beneficial to put in the direct wire to the relay'.

I assumed that as the current 8V motor is started (or sometimes not started) by a wire that runs all over the place and through the handlebar switch, that Guzzi is just continuing an unbroken tradition. However I see that they did actually wire the V11 differently. I didn't have a no-start problem with the V11 so it's not something that I ever looked into.

 

Roy,

are all the V11s wired with a direct feed to the relay and do you know if Guzzi's wiring layouts have changed back and forwards over the years, through various models, or is it just the V11 that was treated 'normally'? If they did the V11 like that, it seems odd that the design has moved 'backwards' again for the current models.

 

David

[Guzzirider]

Trevor- I am happy to whip a starter off one of my bikes if you want to try that on yours.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Roy,

are all the V11s wired with a direct feed to the relay and do you know if Guzzi's wiring layouts have changed back and forwards over the years, through various models, or is it just the V11 that was treated 'normally'? If they did the V11 like that, it seems odd that the design has moved 'backwards' again for the current models.

 

David

David, if you take a quick survey of Carl's drawings tracing the wiring from terminal 30 of the start relay the 1999 Vll Sport does, and I know my 2001 does

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sportissimo.html

 

But almost all the other bikes before and since feed the start relay via the ignition switch.

If you measure the current drawn by the solenoid with a multimeter it shows less than 10 Amps which shouldn't be a problem but this is just the holding current, the real work the solenoid does is in the fraction of a second between the time the start relay closes and when the solenoid closes it's main contact, it takes a massive magnetic field to engage the starter gear

A Valeo will pull about 50 Amps, a Bosch about 40

If you calculate the resistance of the two coils in parallel it works out ~ 0.2 Ohms

Say for argument sake you had a total resistance of 0.2 Ohms through all the wiring, ignition switch, fuse, relay the instant current would be 12 / (0.2 + 0.2) = 30 Amps

By cutting out half the wiring it's reasonable to think you could at least cut the resistance in half e.g. 0.1

So now the current to pull in the starter is 12 / (0.1 + 0.2) = 40 Amps

BTW I think I am being realy generious in saying the total wiring is only 0.2 Ohms, I have seen the ignition switch alone many times that.

 

I honestly don't think Guzzi understand there are two coils in the starter solenoid otherwise they might show it in their schematics.

 

A usefull calculator

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm

 

Using the calculator

30 Amps 0.2 Ohms = 180 Watts - This is the power available for the solenoid to do it's work, the power dissipated in the wiring is lost.

With a better circuit

40 Amps 0.2 Ohms = 320 Watts - Almost double the power

 

Roy

[belfastguzzi]

It's very interesting to see those figures Roy, thanks.

 

I've now done a direct (fused) wire modification on my Griso and the first time I started the motor afterwards, I thought that it started quicker. (Of course it's just fractions... but that's how it seemed.)

 

In a way the latest non-start incident on my bike has been a good thing. I certainly know the wiring a lot better now and am understanding the ECU (the mighty Piaggio Aprilia Moto Guzzi super brain) better. This mighty Piaggio Aprilia Moto Guzzi super brain could just be more clever than I thought– and I'm coming to see that it has sensitive and demanding sides to its nature. I've discovered a couple of unsuspected, minor electro-mechanical faults that I think have been contributing to my long-term woes, partly because they've been upsetting to the ECU super brain. It looks like the modern ECU likes everything to be very close to perfect. OK, that's rather cryptic and I will explain a bit more when I get some photos posted.

[Admin Jaap]

[belfastguzzi]

Exactly. That's what's controlling my motorbike. I don't need to post any more photos now.

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

All we need now is for the original poster to report back