03 V11 runs like crap

[Kiwi_Roy]

The air bleed screws have a slight effect on mixture at idle because you can change the idle speed without changing the throttle angle.
The white knob sets the throttle balance under power, has anyone tried to do that on the move?


The way I interpret the 150 mV setting it's just a reference point like the survey mark down the street.

The bike never operates there but as Meinolf pointed out it anchors it to the map the same as a surveyor would reference the marker before laying out the foundations.

 

 

I wish people would forget about 530mV, it means nothing, just set the idle at 1100 or anywhere else you want it to idle. personally I find 1100 too fast, it takes away from the engine breaking. Last time I did my EV I just used the fast idle lever.

[Meinolf]

Hi,

 

for some time now I have been looking into the function of the 15M ECU. Over time this expanded to sensors, actuators and other peripherals having impact on the gas flow and mixture and then more and more deep dives into the theoretical background.The 15M has lots of potential, even though it's quite simple compared to the current generation of ECUs.

 

My initial approach was to change the fuel maps based  on road data logged with a LM-2. But that quickly turned out to be a short-sighted one, as this is just scratching the surface. So I built this ECU simulator https://db.tt/G7pXsKEx and started a systematic research, trying to reverse engineer the unknown functions of the multitude of tables and scalars in the ECU code. All of the findings are applied to the BINs I use for road testing and logging in my V11 and now a Jackal as well. I have also shared my BINs with several members here and on Wildguzzi, the general feedback was good even though BINs optimized for a specific bike leave much less room for deviations than the original BINs.

 

In short, the findings so far are that all! trim tables in the BIN identified so far are lacking. Neither air nor engine temperature or the barometric correction were correct and the TPS look-up table contains wrong values. The impact of the individual settings on AFR is usually quite small, but errors add up. So one percent here and two percent there can add up to the mixture being off by 10 or 20 percent in the end, and that's noticeable. As many have experienced yourself, looking at the problems reported here.

 

So a laid back approach to getting the base settings right, replacing sensors with resistors, changing the CO trim or twiddling the bypass screws results in just that, a laid back performance.

 

Cheers

Meinolf

[Meinolf]

Hi,

 

The air bleed screws have a slight effect on mixture at idle because you can change the idle speed without changing the throttle angle.

 

I fully agree. The adjustment procedure using the bypass screws stems from the time when the BIN couldn't be modified. The best approach is to keep the bypass screws completely closed and adjust the mixture by changing the values in both fuel maps based on logged data. Which has the beneficial side effect of making good BINs transportable to other bikes as the unquantifiable influence of the bypass screws is avoided.

 

The white knob sets the throttle balance under power, has anyone tried to do that on the move?

Yes, that's my SOP when checking the synchronization after having made significant changes to the BIN. It's a bit awkward, but can be done if the road is empty and straight.

 

 

The way I interpret the 150 mV setting it's just a reference point like the survey mark down the street. The bike never operates there but as Meinolf pointed out it anchors it to the map the same as a surveyor would reference the marker before laying out the foundations.

It's 156mV, not 150mV. That's a 4% difference and you do feel the effect. The air flow at low throttle openings is a very turbulent one and getting the mixture right and stable at low throttle settings is really time consuming. I've spent 50% or more of the entire logging focusing on the 5% breakpoints at low rpm and TPS opening.

 

 

I wish people would forget about 530mV, it means nothing, just set the idle at 1100 or anywhere else you want it to idle. personally I find 1100 too fast, it takes away from the engine breaking. Last time I did my EV I just used the fast idle lever.

Again, completely agree. I found an idle of 900rpm with a completely cold engine right after starting, which increases to a rock-solid 1000rpm at any other air or engine temperature to be high enough to provide sufficient oil pressure even if the engine is cooking and also charge the battery sufficiently.

 

To increase engine breaking I also added fuel cut-off at the lowest three TPS break point columns down to 2700rpm. Which is not essential for the Jackal, but very helpful with the V11 if driven spiritedly.

 

Cheers

Meinolf

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Meinolf,
Excellent idea to shut the fuel off on those cells.
I'm running a MyECU, it should be easy remembering to do it will be the hard part.



Sent from my shoe phone!

[docc]

I don't have the AXONE or guzzidiag software, will my PCIII map show the step 6 - idle trim set to 0?  If not and this is quite important I might as well take it to the stealership...

 

Also, when using the Micha method, do you just open the bleed screws from where they are now one full turn....and after I have synced the TBs to I remove the synch rod to set the TPS or just adjust it as it sets?  

 

I have yellow paint on my adjuster screws, I assume that will just chip off allowing me to make the adjustments? 

 

In case you didn't click on the Micha Method that I referenced above, here's what works for me:

Step one - Set your valves to world settings (.15mm/.006" intake, .2mm/.008" exhaust)

Step two - Set your air bleed screws to open 1 full turn

Step three - Synch throttle bodies at just off idle (around 1800 rpm)

Step four - Set idle to 1100 using left idle screw adjuster only

Step five - Set TPS to 3.6 degrees (530mV)

Step six - Ensure idle trim is set to zero. This requires an AXEONE dealer tool or either VDST or GuzziDiag software.

It is very interesting the critical nature of the TPS baseline with the throttle plate COMPLETELY closed (including releasing all screws, connections and the high idle system as well as cleaning the throttle plate in the bore), and that 156 mV is the actual measure.

I would consider this Step One.

 

@ggo: No, your PCIII won't read or adjust the CO trim, which is often set "~minus 30" from the factory.

My thinking: CO trim is Step Two.

 

Bleed screw settings are from the closed position. Mine get quite sooty and benefit from a cleaning of the screw tips and their receptacles (every valve adjustment?) Here, I may disagree with Meinolf and Kiwi_Roy, but if the screws are going to bleed air, shouldn't that be taken into consideration in the final AFR and synchronization?

 

Absolutely agreed that, once all the baselines are set (TPS, CO, valves, careful synchronization) that the idle can go where you like. Some like a low, grumpy idle (shows off the cam!), while I like mine up a bit; seems much more stable in the higher ambient temps in my region (>90ºF/32ºC).

[Gottagetone]

I have been reading the setting of the TPS thread along with all of these posts and I see where you back the RH idle screw all the way off but I am not seeing where you adjust it back in?  Also, If I don't have the dig software is this futile for me to attempt?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Setting the TPS is made out to be much more complex than it really is, the only Voltage you have to set is the 150mV (156 according to Meinolf) with the throttle fully closed.

That's it, youre done, you don't touch the TPS again.

[Meinolf]

Hi,

 

I have been reading the setting of the TPS thread along with all of these posts and I see where you back the RH idle screw all the way off but I am not seeing where you adjust it back in? 

 

the right and left hand idle stop screws are used to adjust the idle speed and synch the cylinders at idle after the TPS base setting was done.

 

 

 Also, If I don't have the dig software is this futile for me to attempt?

 

You don't need GuzziDiag to adjust the TPS. The granularity of the 8bit AD in the ECU is not good enough to use GuzziDiag to set the voltage to 156mV. A DMM is needed for the purpose.

 

Cheers

Meinolf

[Meinolf]

Hi,

 

is the 150mV (156 according to Meinolf) with the throttle fully closed.

 

it's not really according to Meinolf, but according to the curve of the TPS used, PF03C. The formula of the PF03C for voltage dependent on opening is mV = (degree x 105) / 150. If this is changed to Degree = (mV-150) /105, it's easy to see that the calculated degree value will be

 

As the voltage resolution of the 8bit AD is 0.01953V (5V/256), the first voltage value step bigger than 150mV is the 8th (8 x 0,01953 = 0.15624V). So the cell $07 contains 0 degrees as value, the cell $08 0.06 degrees and so on. So this is were the 156mV come from.

 

As the values in the original TPS lookup table, in all the BINs I have seen, are slightly off, here's a recalculated and correct one (for PF03C): https://db.tt/bhegzYG1

 

Cheers

Meinolf

[Gottagetone]

Looks like there are two...or three...schools of thought here.  My breakout harness will be here in a couple days which will allow me to get a solid number.  Once that happens I will report back and go from there.  Thanks again for all the input and help. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

I don't think we differ in opinion by much 6 mV over 5 Volts is only 0.12%, you will not be able to set the TPS that accurately.

The TPS is only one part of the equation, engine speed, oil temperature, air temperature, atmospheric pressure, battery Voltage also figure into it, I'm sure I missed a few.

 

 

I would aim for 150 but err on the high side

[Meinolf]

Hi,

 

I don't think we differ in opinion by much 6 mV over 5 Volts is only 0.12%, you will not be able to set the TPS that accurately. The TPS is only one part of the equation, engine speed, oil temperature, air temperature, atmospheric pressure, battery Voltage also figure into it, I'm sure I missed a few.

 

and again I completely  agree. It's a small difference, and the resolution of the AD makes it seem even smaller and less important. And who knows the the accuracy of the AD? And not everybody will be using a hi-quality DMM to measure and set the voltage. And the TPS tends to slip a bit when fastening the screws. And....

 

BUT, why not use the value we know to be correct and try to get as close as possible?

 

Cheers

Meinolf

[docc]

150 mV is a good round number and it's mentioned in numerous documents including the V11 Workshop Manual

I don't believe the TPS is perfectly linear, at least it doesn't Ohm out that way.

You know way more than I do about the PF0C3 but lets agree to disagree or take our discussion off the thread.

Cheers

Roy

Gentlemen, all is well with this discussion. Thank you for keeping it up in this thread. It is both thought provoking and revealing.

 

There is much to learn from all contributors and I, for one, appreciate the open discussion.

[docc]

I can say that I tried to move my TPS baseline to 165mV (having thought there is a +/- range for the baseline TPS setting, but there is no range, the value is specified. My Sport runs better with the TPS at 150mV compared to 165mV.

 

The *theory* at the time was to "trick" the ECU to enrichen the AFR throughout the range.

 

For reasons that are (more) obvious now, it didn't work, especially at low throttle openings.

 

I can look at my notes, but I've had it at 150mV for quite a long time. Long enough to see if the minute difference to 156mV is discernible in any way (for me).

[Meinolf]

Hi Docc,

 

The *theory* at the time was to "trick" the ECU to enrichen the AFR throughout the range. For reasons that are (more) obvious now, it didn't work, especially at low throttle openings.

 

the thought is correct, AFR will be impacted.

 

But whether the result is a rich or leaner mixture depends on the actual values in the fuel map. I found that Guzzis are very forgiving in regards to rich mixture. During my experiments I had extended areas where Lambda was at 06.-0.7. I didn't feel it when riding. Lean conditions, on the other side, are very much noticeable. Any time Lambda exceeds 1.0 the bike gets jumpy.

 

In this case using the CO trim setting would be the prefered - but not best - approach. The CO trim adds a constant value to the injection time, whose influence will be biggest at low fuel values and decrease with bigger fuel values. The best approach is to measure AFR and adjust the fuel values to achieve the desired AFR.

 

Cheers

Meinolf