extending plain bearing life

[v11brad]

Shortly after changing oil & filter my 02 LM developed a small oil leak near bottom rear of motor so I removed the lower sump to check fastners were tite inside, but was alarmed to find tiny metallic bits at the bottom of the pan.I've always changed my own oil in my various vechicles and usually found small amounts of metallics, this time the oil was cleaner and I saw many bits. I'm asumeing it's plain bearing Material due to the drain magnet being clean.By not refilling a new oil filter can their be enough oil starvation to wear the plain bearing enough to see as metalic bits?

[pete roper]

Shortly after changing oil & filter my 02 LM developed a small oil leak near bottom rear of motor so I removed the lower sump to check fastners were tite inside, but was alarmed to find tiny metallic bits at the bottom of the pan.I've always changed my own oil in my various vechicles and usually found small amounts of metallics, this time the oil was cleaner and I saw many bits. I'm asumeing it's plain bearing Material due to the drain magnet being clean.By not refilling a new oil filter can their be enough oil starvation to wear the plain bearing enough to see as metalic bits?

 

While pre-filling the filter is a good idea it is unlikely that putting a filter on dry will cause this problem unless the engine is started 'Full Noise' after a filter change.

 

Most likely cause is oil starvation under hard acceleration due to oil pick-up exposure. Drop the rod caps and inspect/replace the shells if the crank pin looks OK and fit a sloppage sheet. End of problem.

 

Pete

[v11brad]

I took it out for a ride to see if the oil lite would come on under full aceralation 1st gear, no lite, that should elimanate that cause in my case.I'll reserve removeing bearing caps as a last measure, I don't want to disturb bearing alignments the slightist bit. So far my conclusion is debri setles in the sump before filtration and draining, if that's so what I saw is the accumalation of 19,000 miles, this being my first sump removal.

My 1998 EV11 had the oil filter mounted inverted in the sump possibly resulting in self priming after oil changes.

[pete roper]

I took it out for a ride to see if the oil lite would come on under full aceralation 1st gear, no lite, that should elimanate that cause in my case.I'll reserve removeing bearing caps as a last measure, I don't want to disturb bearing alignments the slightist bit. So far my conclusion is debri setles in the sump before filtration and draining, if that's so what I saw is the accumalation of 19,000 miles, this being my first sump removal.

My 1998 EV11 had the oil filter mounted inverted in the sump possibly resulting in self priming after oil changes.

 

You need to inspect the bearings. If you think that the debris is.bits of shell then you need to confirm or deny the fact. If it isn't bits of shell you need to look elsewhere. If it is bits of shell you have to replace them as plain bearings have to have the correct tolerances or they can't work and failure is inevitable.

 

Pete

[luhbo]

Well, if it was my bike I'd say once it's bits of shell the cheese is up anyway - and see what would happen further on. There's still a very good chance that these bits are just assembly leftovers (broken piston pin clips for instance), sealing stuff, things like that.

That's a more unofficial statement, maybe, but being mechanically grown on filterless high KM Beetle engines I have seen a LOT of small bits laying around in oil sumps resp. manhole covers.

 

Hubert

[SilverGoose]

Well, if it was my bike I'd say once it's bits of shell the cheese is up anyway - and see what would happen further on. There's still a very good chance that these bits are just assembly leftovers (broken piston pin clips for instance), sealing stuff, things like that.

That's a more unofficial statement, maybe, but being mechanically grown on filterless high KM Beetle engines I have seen a LOT of small bits laying around in oil sumps resp. manhole covers.

 

Hubert

I'm with Pete on this, drop the sump check the big end bearings, catch it before more damage is done. Have you checked to see if the debris is magnetic? If not that is an easy check. If you can catch the damage before the crank is destroyed could save big dollars.

 

Good Luck

[motowarren]

I'll reserve removeing bearing caps as a last measure, I don't want to disturb bearing alignments the slightist bit.

 

 

I don't get that. Replacing the brg shells is easier than the work you've already done removing the sump. And there is no chance of mis alignment of the brgs as long as there installed in their grooves. And it's a ton easier and cheaper than later removing and regrinding or replacing the crank.

[v11brad]

Removed sump today to have a look, laying on the ground couldn't see crank looks like I'll need a bike lift? cleaned it up, put it back together. I'll monitor the oil for contaminats before going futher.

[Kiwi_Roy]

With apologies to Pete, "you've forgotten more than I will ever know"

 

I Quote

So far my conclusion is debri setles in the sump before filtration and draining, if that's so what I saw is the accumalation of 19,000 miles, this being my first sump removal.

 

Since you had the sump off for the first time perhaps as Luhbo said it was just bits left over.

 

If it's running fine ride it for a while then check again, it you find more metal next time then worry.

 

Roy

[pete roper]

I just can't understand why you wold risk a catastrophic engine failure that will cost you a crank when simply dropping the sump spacer and associated munt, (18 fasteners.) will allow you access to the big ends, (4 fasteners.). Look, it's your bike. No skin off my nose either way but it seems like a false economy to me.

 

Pete

[luhbo]

Technically nothing of what you say is wrong as such. But how likely is it that the big end shells in this engine let go and how likely is a catastrophic failure as a direct consequence of this? Define 'catastrophic' Knocking big ends are annoying rather than catastrophic I'd say. Even more as you wouldn't want to visually inspect otherwise good shells as long as you don't have the experience for that. They usually don't look new, they probably don't look good even.

 

Maybe some hint about the size of the found flakes would have been helpful. I'd regard it as totaly normal if the oil sump reminds you of glittery make-up powder for instance (hope that's a usable picture).

My point is that it not really makes sense to propose always the '100%' overhaul first, based only on assumptions or as in this case on a rather loose question.

Hubert

[Craig]

Just for comparison, I was easily able to generate a low pressure light on acceleration in first and second with my 04 Ballabio. Engine had about 9000 miles on it when I picked up a sloppage plate. When I pulled the sump I inspected very carefully and it was surgically clean. I put the sloppage plate on and never saw the low pressure light again. I think you have more than one problem here.

[Baldini]

...I was easily able to generate a low pressure light on acceleration in first and second with my 04 Ballabio...

As a matter of interest, do you know what amount of oil you had in there when you did that? Was it up at max on the stick?

 

KB

[v11brad]

Particle size is like looking at a mettalic paint surface, larger than makeup powder,smaller than metalflake paint,volume is enough to be concerned,not enough to panic. Oil level was max, measured with cycle plumb,during aceraration tests.Flushed oil radiator and found enough specks to wonder how they got past the oil filter.I'm still reluctant to remove a big end cap due to the required replacement of expensive con rod bolts,which I don't see listed on line, also looks like a pretty involved job, might be opening a can of worms. I'd like to satisfy our querosity of how the bearing look,it does't answer the cause or the source. I am considering removing crank front bearing cap

Instead?

update;

I just watched You Tube regarding Fram oil filters it showed a hole in a new filter,that explains debri geting past filter.

[luhbo]

Here are some pics taken while I had my engine open two years ago at 120.000km.

 

 

These are just things you usually find in an engine that's doing what it was built for.

 

Hubert