V11 Sport Overheating

[Kiwi_Roy]

I would definately check the voltage directly across the coils to chassis, there may be something dropping it there and perhaps the injectors are not opening cleanly as they should,

Make sure the ground to the ECU is in good order, I forget which pin it goes to

 

The Petcock fuse would be a good spot to pick up the coil Voltage

 

Pull out the safety relay R3 and short between the 2 contacts just to be sure nothing is dropping the ECU out e.g. Sidestand Switch, I had a problem with mine running rough a year back it was a dirty ignition switch.

[moto fugazzi]

I would definately check the voltage directly across the coils to chassis, there may be something dropping it there and perhaps the injectors are not opening cleanly as they should,

Make sure the ground to the ECU is in good order, I forget which pin it goes to

 

The Petcock fuse would be a good spot to pick up the coil Voltage

 

Pull out the safety relay R3 and short between the 2 contacts just to be sure nothing is dropping the ECU out e.g. Sidestand Switch, I had a problem with mine running rough a year back it was a dirty ignition switch.

How do I check the voltage from the coils to the chassis?

I'll doublecheck the ECU ground pin. I do have 2 grounds on the case, and 2 on the regulator.

The bike now has the manual petcock. Is there a separate fuse for it? If so, should I pull it out?

I'll try the short in RR3 as well just to be sure. Which contacts do I jump exactly?

I did clean the ignition switch a few weekends ago.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Just when we think you are on the way it starts to play up again.

 

 

The fact that the sidestand switch doesn't allways work could well be a problem, it might mean that the ECU relay is dropping out check that out for sure, if you pull relay 3 and wrap a strand of bare wire around the two large pins this should short it out or jamb a short wire in the socket.

 

I show a test lamp connected to the old petcock fuse to monitor the safety circuit

 

I was wrong about measuring the voltage at the petcock fuse you need to measure the common Voltage supplied to the coils, injectors and pumps, can you swing your Voltmeter Positive over there either to the positive on a coil or pump or wrapped around the 87 pin of relay 5

ECU Wiring.pdf

Check the two fuses and relay 4 & 5 are nice and tight in their sockets.

 

If the Voltage at the coils is ok and it's still misbehaving check also the voltage at pin 87 of relay 4

 

Check that the ECU pins 23 & 24 are zero Ohms to the battery Negative

 

Pull the seat release lock off and make sure the main battery ground behind it is good and tight.

 

In an earlier post you told us how the bike started playing up after hitting some railroad tracks, at the time we thought it was the regulator, perhaps it was something else loose. The Voltage at the coils may go up or down a little bit with the battery but it should be rock solid.

 

I would also check the way those LEDs are wired, it seems like they may be part of the problem, can you sketch out the changes the PO made?

Perhaps the additional load is just too much>

Measure the current between the regulator and battery under all different scenarios with the motor at idle and normal speed.

The manual says the alternator puts out 350 Watts but thats when new, the magnets get weaker with age.

[moto fugazzi]

Update:

New regulator was added last week, and I did some more testing. Voltage at sone of the relays reads .4V less than the battery (13.4V at the fuel pump and side stand relays vs. 13.8V at the battery).

AC output of the alternator tested higher than what my manual says. 48 at 3k rpm and 96 van at 6k rpm. Manual says 40 (at 3k) and 80 (at 6k).

I dropped the pan, cleaned everything and replaced the oil. A fair amount of mayo in the oil pan and the cylinder head cover, and the oil dipstick temp never gets over 80 celsius. I did make sure all of the external oil lines were clear, and they were.

The other thing I noticed. Bike ran great on the freeway. Taking the side roads back home is when the bike gets really hot, especially at speeds below 40mph, so I'm now thinking the problem may not be voltage related, but speed related. When I get back on the freeway, the bike does cool down.

Seems strange that the heads get really hot, but the oil temp doesn't get warmer than 80C.

[Lucky Phil]

Update:

New regulator was added last week, and I did some more testing. Voltage at sone of the relays reads .4V less than the battery (13.4V at the fuel pump and side stand relays vs. 13.8V at the battery).

AC output of the alternator tested higher than what my manual says. 48 at 3k rpm and 96 van at 6k rpm. Manual says 40 (at 3k) and 80 (at 6k).

I dropped the pan, cleaned everything and replaced the oil. A fair amount of mayo in the oil pan and the cylinder head cover, and the oil dipstick temp never gets over 80 celsius. I did make sure all of the external oil lines were clear, and they were.

The other thing I noticed. Bike ran great on the freeway. Taking the side roads back home is when the bike gets really hot, especially at speeds below 40mph, so I'm now thinking the problem may not be voltage related, but speed related. When I get back on the freeway, the bike does cool down.

Seems strange that the heads get really hot, but the oil temp doesn't get warmer than 80C.

You are reading "bulk" oil temp. It has little relation to local oil temp at specific engine locations such as the cylinder heads around the exhaust port area or big end pin. So bulk oil temp may be low (and 80 deg C is to low which is why you have Mayo present) but spot temp at specific locations may be high. Bulk oil temp should regularly go above 100deg C to evaporate off the water that accumulates as a byproduct of combustion especially when the engine is in the warm up cycle. People that worry about bulk oil temps of 100 to 110 dec c on occasion are worrying about nothing esp if using a group 4 synthetic oil.

You need to quantify the "overheating". I suggest a cylinder head temp gauge with the sensor under the spark plug and get some data.

 

Ciao

[moto fugazzi]

Thanks Lucky Phil!

I did install a cylinder head temp sensor, and also an AFR meter. I took the bike for a 20 mile ride yesterday, and the head temp was around 295f while riding, and up to 320f when I let it sit at idle for a few minutes. Outside temp at that time was 40f and drizzle. 

Earlier this week, I tried setting the TPS again, and kept receiving TPS error codes on my VDST, so I picked up a new one from the HD dealership, and haven't had an error code yet...   I also installed a stock ECU for now, and the bike is running really good, and I'm only having problems with the bike running poorly when I sit at a stop light and I notice the AFR is over 15. It quickly gets running fine again once I get moving and get the AFR in the 13-14 range.

Next, I'll put in the Guzzitech reflashed ECU and PCIII and take it for a ride, and I should be able to fine tune the PCIII with the AFR meter. That will be later this year, as the temps are quickly dropping and snow and sleet is expected tonight.  

 

http://www.aemelectronics.com/wideband-air-fuel-systems-15/digital-wideband-air-fuel-gauge-25/

[gstallons]

That looks good !

[docc]

 . . .  I'm only having problems with the bike running poorly when I sit at a stop light and I notice the AFR is over 15. It quickly gets running fine again once I get moving and get the AFR in the 13-14 range.

Hmmm -low mass Engine Temperature Sensor?

[gstallons]

You do know the higher the AFR = the more lean the mixture ?

[moto fugazzi]

 . . .  I'm only having problems with the bike running poorly when I sit at a stop light and I notice the AFR is over 15. It quickly gets running fine again once I get moving and get the AFR in the 13-14 range.

Hmmm -low mass Engine Temperature Sensor?

I just don't have the ability to make one of those. You didn't happen to make extras, did you?

 

On a somewhat related note, after setting the TPS, I noticed the air temp on the VDST said 74f, but it was 37f outside at the time. I do have the open air box lid, so I'm thinking of either moving the air temp sensor, or going with a new lid with 3 holes drilled in it and the snorkels enlarged to 2" like posted in another thread on this site. I'm sure the air temp sensor is picking up engine heat at red lights, and causing the hiccup. Since I'm seeing over 15 AFR at red lights, I'm assuming that the higher air temp sensor reading is causing the bike to run lean?

I do have some extra thermistors from KiwiRoy (thanks!), so I can play around with mounting them in various places. I also found an air temp sensor with the proper housing at my local HD dealership for $25 and it had the proper ohm readings at various temps when I tested it. It's part #27270-95 which is close to their TPS part #27291-95. The dealer told me the -95 is the year bike that it was used on.

Ken 

[moto fugazzi]

You do know the higher the AFR = the more lean the mixture ?

Correct. I am surprised that just over 15AFR did cause some running issues.  I think Todd at Guzzitech shoots for a 14.1 AFR. The dynojet guy that mapped my bike tries to get 13.1AFR. Keep in mind that this was with a stock ECU, and I'll be installing the reflashed ECU and PCIII when it warms up. I should be able to monitor the AFR and tweak things over summer, if needed.

Ken

[moto fugazzi]

So, I think the problem is now solved. When I bought my bike, it had K&N pods on it, and it didn't run perfectly (pinging and running hot). I then switched to an open air box and got the Guzzitech reflash and PCIII, with a little bit better result. Then, I read about drilling 3 holes in the lid, and opening up the "snorkels" in the air box, and had the same results, if not a little worse than the open air box. 

With my AFR meter, I started noticing that the faster I went, the leaner the bike ran at the same RPMs. e.g.: if I was going 30mph at 3K rpm, the AFR was 13.1. At 50mph and 3K, the bike was at over 14AFR. Today, I put on the stock airbox lid with rubber snorkels facing down, and had consistent 13.1AFR at 3K rpm's at all different speeds. Looks like the problem is solved so far. CHT has stayed below 300f (used to go over 330f with previous airbox configurations), and all pinging seems to be gone. 

Before I switched to the stock airbox lid, I talked to my local dealer, and he mentioned that altering the airbox is great if your racing or running a lot of WOT, but if you do city driving, stay with the stock air box-there's a reason they designed it that way. At least for my bike, it needs a consistent air flow, so no more intake mods for me. YMMV.

I figured the problem would be something very simple to fix. Now I'm thinking of all the time I spent cleaning connections, testing or replacing sensors, sending out the injectors for rebuilding, etc. It was fun to go through the bike, and probably necessary for a 12 year old bike, but it was a lot of time that I could have been riding instead. Now it's time to build another custom PCIII map...

Ken

[docc]

So, the rubber down-snorkels aren't just to reduce noise for emissions testing?