Battery terminals arc when connecting

[AndyH]

The weekend before last, I re-commissioned the V11 after the long long winter layup. I've been looking after the battery indoors and keeping it topped up for several months with a Gel Battery maintenance gizmo (Oxford Maximiser).

 

On reconnection to the negative terminal I thought I saw a bit of a spark so I tested and it happened again. Maybe I should have looked further but I carried on and the bike ran fine and kept charge, although as a matter of routine I keep it plugged into the Maximiser.

Today I noticed that Relay 3 was a bit warm fter standing for some time, and tested across the terminals getting a small voltage when the ignition was off and the run switch off. With the run switch on the voltage dropped to 0.

 

I decided to follow up and poring over Kiwi_Roy's worthy diagram I ran through the tests and the tests all seemed to give the right readings. When I disconnected the battery measuring current running into the battery with the ignition off... 12-13 mA.

 

Looking at other posts on the forum there have been some about the current drain from post 17 on the ECU e.g. Battery draining through ECU. These suggest 0.076A is normal so maybe 0.013A is not so bad. I get this arcing even with all the fuses pulled so I kind of suspect something else is awry, insulation breaking down somewhere or something and don't want to push it further. I'm most concerned about wrecking the ECU.

 

So does sparking when connecting the battery bode ill or not? My battery maintenance regime seems to have kept the battery in good fettle but I have a sneaking feeling that if I go away on a long trip I'll find it flat one day.

 

Advice gratefully received.

 

AndyH

 

 

 

[gstallons]

Swap relay #3 with another relay and see if the problem stays or follows that relay. If the problem stays with position #3 the problem is in that circuit. If the problem follows that relay , replace the relay. These relays  are not exotic and can be purchased at a NAPA or similar auto parts store.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I can't see any reason why you should get any sparking at all when you have all fuses out, perhaps you have some corrosion going on in one of the connectors.

 Try to isolate it further by pulling all the wires of the positive terminal and testing one at the time.

Has the bike been stored outside?

[AndyH]

Swap relay #3 with another relay and see if the problem stays or follows that relay. If the problem stays with position #3 the problem is in that circuit. If the problem follows that relay , replace the relay. These relays  are not exotic and can be purchased at a NAPA or similar auto parts store.

That was certainly one of my first thoughts, however it still sparks without the relay in place at all...

 

I can't see any reason why you should get any sparking at all when you have all fuses out, perhaps you have some corrosion going on in one of the connectors.

 Try to isolate it further by pulling all the wires of the positive terminal and testing one at the time.

Has the bike been stored outside?

Never been stored outside while I've had the bike but we have a damp climate here and the salt gets pretty much everywhere in winter no matter what you do so storing under cover doesn't mean as much as it might elsewhere... 

 

Looks like 'drains up' time to hunt the snark...

 

I'll keep posting updates, thanks

 

AndyH

[AndyH]

That didn't take long - I've identified the culprit: the Electrex RR451 regulator rectifier I used to replace the Ducati type regulator last year. It seems that the reg is not rectifying as it should and there's a definite spark on the fuse blades when putting the 30 amp fuse back in with the ignition off.

 

When I installed the unit I followed the Electrex instructions and put in a big fat 27 amp rated red wire direct back to the Battery +ve via a giant 30 amp blade fuse and good strong earth to the engine and frame. I still need to check the wiring to make sure there isn't any compromised insulation anywhere but because of the 12V and the low current indicated flowing back through the fuse I suspect this is either how the Reg is or that the rectification is breaking down. I don't have any measurements from a new unit out of the box to compare it to.

 

Anyone have experience of the same thing with the Electrex RR451 or suggest whether the rectification might be amiss with the unit?

 

AndyH

[Kiwi_Roy]

I found this on their web site, they indicate a leakage of 50 mA is OK.

The spark you see could be the inrush current to charge a capacitor.

 

 

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/Troubleshooting-3P-PMG-&-RR.pdf

[AndyH]

The spark you see could be the inrush current to charge a capacitor. 

Thanks Roy,

 

That was the bit that had me stumped - I couldn't figure out how such a tiny current could spark like that, and I got all paranoid about draining the battery and what the sparking might do to the ECU. No need I guess.

 

Over an extended period I imagine the battery would drain, so I could pull the big blade fuse to stop the leak. Otherwise I feel I can rest easy.

 

Andy

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hi Andy,

        I was surprised when I saw 50 mA, it seemed very high but the original Ducati Energia also draws current only it's disconnected from the battery when the headlights off, this causes other problems.

The current is used as a Voltage reference and to turn the regulator on.

I have an aftermarket Electrosport, I must remember to measure the leakage on that, I put it on about a month ago so my batteries probably well flat by now.   

 

I could leave the old one 6 months without charging and the bike would start no worries.

 

Update - The Electrosport ESR-510 only draws 3 milliamps which is a non issue, no spark.

[AndyH]

Hi Roy,

 

Thanks for your help on this. I don't quite get as high as 50 mA but I will check out the Electrosport anyway, see if I can get it here: it seems like it might be a rather more sound option if the Electrex continues to drain: IMHO an automotive rectifier shouldn't leak otherwise what's the point?

Andy

[Trevini]

I have the same reg/rec on mine. I'll have a look over the weekend to check what mine is doing Andy.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The original Ducati Energia leaks quite a lot as well, Guzzi got around that by switching it off with the headlight relay but that created a whole different list of problems.

I would also check out the regulator on later Guzzis, those are wired straight to the battery, I have no experience with them.

 

 

A typical, item (18)

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_V7_Classic.gif

[AndyH]

I have the same reg/rec on mine. I'll have a look over the weekend to check what mine is doing Andy.

Out of interest, did you wire yours into the standard red wire or use a direct line back to the battery as the manufacturers recommended in their fitting instructions? (What I did).

Might make a difference.

The Electrex seems to work fine otherwise, except that the red charge light comes on at tickover (as reported by other users) but only when the headlight is on.

BTW, it was that in part that led (sorry, unintended pun) me to fit LED pilot light, stop/tail and bikevis LED bullet* daytime running lights to help reduce load in heavy stop start traffic. I subsequently found the charging isn't that marginal but I quite like them now as they're unobtrusive but do seem to keep dozy muppets from veering into my path when filtering through stationary traffic on the M25

 

*http://www.bikevis.com/motorcycle-led-running-lights.html

[Trevini]

Wired direct as per Electrex instructions, but I don't have a charge light as such. I have a tricolour led. Charge system sits consistently over 13.2 when riding (green) and occasionally drops between 11.8 -13.2 (yellow) with the lights on at idle.

 

Linky

[Trevini]

Andy.

 

I've just been out and checked mine according to the Electrex trouble shooting guide that Kiwi-Roy provided.

 

Test 1 - 40.8mA with all fuses in and reg/rec connected.

             0.8mA with all fuses in but reg/rec disconnected.

 

Both measurements taken with ignition off and in steering locked position.

 

Test 2 - Battery voltage 13.28v.  Dropped to 12.26 and remained constant.  Result may be slightly misleading due to battery only just being disconnected from battery minder. Odessey PC545 battery.

 

Test 3 - Battery voltage as above.

             14.15v at idle rising to 14.5v at 3k rpm with lights off.

             13.47v at idle rising to 14.01v with lights on.

 

Mine's charging ok, but I'm a little surprised to see that much current draw. Dropping the earth lead to the battery from the reg/rec seemed to confirm it's that which is draining the current.  Typically, mine will be a bit sluggish to turn over if not used for a week or two and not kept on a battery minder of some sort.  My TDM, however, can be left for months at a time and never even looked at, let alone topped up!.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Trev

[AndyH]

Thanks Trevini, very helpful.

Confirms my experiences with this device and a warning to others perhaps.

Fortunately, as I said before, I have an easily accessible 30A giant blade fuse protecting the main Red wire from the Reg so I can lift the seat and pull it for longer layups. However I do slot it in between the ignition switch and the clock holder plate while it's out so I don't forget to pop it back in - could be a problem if I drove off without any charging whatsoever....

Andy