Any solution to dragging the kickstand in corners?

[dale-j]

I realize this may be related to my previous post (I need about 1/2" more preload in my fork) but I'm finding that the kick stand on my 2004 V11 Lemans is getting pretty seriously beveled in left hand corners, far before I get to the edge of the tires.   Rights are better, although I don't think I'm going to be getting a knee down on this bike I'd like to do a couple track days this season and the kickstand dragging so early in corners is a real damper on it.  Yes, I could do superman heroics of hanging way off with the bike still pretty upright (actually, less Superman and more Goofy), but I'm following my riding buddy on his VFR, butt planted firmly on his seat and only riding 7/10 on the vfr with chicken strips still, and decking the stand on my Lemans pretty regularly.  I don't expect it to handle like an ST3S - although that may be a solution ;)' but if I wanted a Harley so I could drag stuff in the corners I would have bought one.  I don't think I'm riding the bike at inappropriate corner speeds on its sport-touring tires (am I?) as traction is not the issue and I've barely scrubbed the first index line ("Slay the Elephant!") on the z6 interacts.  Not my favourite tire ever but that's another discussion.

 

Anyone have a good kickstand mod to suggest (other than the asphalt grinding it shorter in the current manner)?  I have good rear ride height and the sag well dialed in the back, need only about 1/2" more preload in the front, and I'm out of ideas.   I weigh 175 lbs and the stock spring rates are good for me.  Considered going from the stock 180/55 in back to a 170/60 but that only gives me 3 millimeters...  I don't think more ride height is going to be the answer.

 

I do have a Becker Technik shop stand and I suppose for the track day I could take the kickstand off, but that's pretty awkward and would require an assistant.

[Admin Jaap]

Did you take an 1/2 inch of the rubber off? that's the easiest mod that most of us have done

[Baldini]

I have a Scura & I think they ride a bit higher than the LM, but I have dropped the forks so it's maybe not that far off. But whatever, kickstand does ground early - I cut the bump stop rubber right back & ground the tip off the foot - well I think it did that itself, then it starts grinding away the front part. I run it to the edges of both tyres, fine when road is smooth but just be a bit wary when the going gets a little bumpy. For a track day I just took it off & leaned it on the fence when I stopped. KB

[docc]

I'm surprised your sag is well set at 175 pounds (that's with full gear?). At about that same weight (but around 190 in full gear), I had to increase the spring rate to get in the 25-30% sag range.

 

Sure correct springs in the front will help (over-preloading may not be a good idea since it limits rebound travel), dialing in a rear 25mm sag in full gear should be a good target.

 

Where are you on the rear sag now?

[GuzziMoto]

My target for sag is 25 - 30% of total travel with me on the bike and around 10% just the bike.

The stock rear shock on the wifes V11 was not overly soft but it was a little soft, and the front forks were soft. She has a Penske shock and modified forks with extra compression set up for her weight. She has ground her stand a little but not much and once clearanced it stopped being an issue.

The rear tires on all the V11's seem to be to wide for their rim. That results in a pinched profile that won't allow you to get to the edge of the tire.

The idea of letting the stand retract a little more is a good one. Setting your sag and using the results to determine how close your spring rates are to correct is another. Remember, adding preload does not make the spring stiffer.

I would think you need stiffer springs. But a little more compression dampening might do the trick.

[dale-j]

Sometimes the simplest solution is staring right at you.  Jaap and Baldini, thanks for jumping in with what should have been an obvious solution.  With the sag and a bit more clearance from the rubber I think I'll be good.

[dale-j]

I'm surprised your sag is well set at 175 pounds (that's with full gear?). At about that same weight (but around 190 in full gear), I had to increase the spring rate to get in the 25-30% sag range.

 

Sure correct springs in the front will help (over-preloading may not be a good idea since it limits rebound travel), dialing in a rear 25mm sag in full gear should be a good target.

 

Where are you on the rear sag now?

I may have underestimated the gear, but I'm about 170 so maybe 180 in leathers etc?

With the cap adjustments maxed out, static sag is 40mm, rider sag in front is 50mm.  What I need is to get the static sag from 40mm to my 10-15mm target and I think the rider sag will be dialed in.  If I get there on the static and it's not as linear as I think with matching rider sag, then I'll start looking at spring rate but right now the static sag needs a big bump in preload. 

 

Rear sag is currently a tiny bit high, I'll have to recheck my numbers tonight but I think static was 22mm and 34 mm rider sag.  I was shooting for 30mm in rear but as you suggest 25mm might be a better target as it will allow some weight to be added to the Hepco bags without upsetting the balance.   I will put a little more preload on the shock when I get the fork dialed in, but right now it's already a bit too firm for the fork.  I do have a subtantial amount more preload available on the shock without any modification, and with the high static sag again I think (*think*) the spring rate is OK, or at least pretty close.

[dale-j]

My target for sag is 25 - 30% of total travel with me on the bike and around 10% just the bike.

The stock rear shock on the wifes V11 was not overly soft but it was a little soft, and the front forks were soft. She has a Penske shock and modified forks with extra compression set up for her weight. She has ground her stand a little but not much and once clearanced it stopped being an issue.

The rear tires on all the V11's seem to be to wide for their rim. That results in a pinched profile that won't allow you to get to the edge of the tire.

The idea of letting the stand retract a little more is a good one. Setting your sag and using the results to determine how close your spring rates are to correct is another. Remember, adding preload does not make the spring stiffer.

I would think you need stiffer springs. But a little more compression dampening might do the trick.

Hmm, with a measured travel (unless I did it wrong?) of 123mm the Lemans does have more total travel than the 100mm I've seen batted around in sport bike discussions, so maybe a bit more sag is not bad on this bike.   30% would be about 36mm so I may only need to add a half inch to my preload.... but then still, my static sag would still be quite a lot at over an inch.

 

The tire on the rim issue is one that we're also looking at.  My brother in law's red frame bike runs a 160 (/70??) in place of the 170/60 and handles very well as a result.  With the wider rim on my bike I have contemplated a similar reduction to a 170/60 but at this point the front tire has pretty similar errrrrr... 'reserves' left. 

 

As far as compression damping, I've just gone the other way to good effect, replacing the oil with 7w Lucas Synthetic fork fluid.  It has helped with high speed compression damping harshness and jitters in quicker corners, and I have raised the oil level a bit to provide some additional progressiveness and resistance to bottoming.  That part I'm very happy with so far.... thankfully there is lots of rebound damping adjustment in my fork so I've been able to compensate for the thinner oil just fine.

 

I think I'd rather have a slightly too stiff spring than slightly too stiff compression damping, so if the preload doesn't put the front end up in the target range I will definitely look at springs.  That said, with the amount of static sag I have I don't *think* it's spring rate, I think it's preload.

[GuzziMoto]

With the sags you list, 50mm with you on board (I call that race sag) and 40mm just the bike (I call that free sag), either you have mis-measured or your springs are way too stiff. They are certainly not correct spring rates if your measurements are correct. Once you have the preload adjusted to the correct sag with you on the bike (I shoot for 25% but some like 30%) you should only have about 10% sag without you on the bike. Having 40% sag without you on the bike means that you have so little preload to achieve your sag with you on the bike that without you on it the bike only reduces sag to 40% of travel. That would be a much too stiff spring. I would double check your measurements. The suspension might be binding and/or you may have lost the gas pressure in the shock.

 

Personally I prefer a stiffer spring (hence the preference for 25% race sag) and less compression dampening. But adding low speed compression dampening (which is the only compression dampening the V11 is likely to have stock) can help keep the suspension higher in the stroke by slowing its compression under cornering forces.

[dale-j]

With the sags you list, 50mm with you on board (I call that race sag) and 40mm just the bike (I call that free sag), either you have mis-measured or your springs are way too stiff. They are certainly not correct spring rates if your measurements are correct. Once you have the preload adjusted to the correct sag with you on the bike (I shoot for 25% but some like 30%) you should only have about 10% sag without you on the bike. Having 40% sag without you on the bike means that you have so little preload to achieve your sag with you on the bike that without you on it the bike only reduces sag to 40% of travel. That would be a much too stiff spring. I would double check your measurements. The suspension might be binding and/or you may have lost the gas pressure in the shock.

 

Personally I prefer a stiffer spring (hence the preference for 25% race sag) and less compression dampening. But adding low speed compression dampening (which is the only compression dampening the V11 is likely to have stock) can help keep the suspension higher in the stroke by slowing its compression under cornering forces.

Just went back to my notes and the bike tonight, and for one, I gave the wrong numbers, prior to dialing in the preload on the caps.  That *was* 40mm and 50mm, but with the preload caps maxed I have 30mm sag just the bike, and 40mm (or 38mm depending on which direction you measure) with me on it when rechecking tonight.  Doesn't seem quite right but it really doesn't seem to move much by my weight... then again I'm not wearing my gear either.  Even when I bounce it and release slowly it comes back up right close to the static sag point.  Now you have me thinking that the PO (a bigger guy who liked the corners) may have managed to change springs without marking up the caps the way I did (oops), I'm going to look more carefully at them when I open up the forks to change the spacers, and I'll take some pictures.  They *may* not be original after all, they did not look like the tapered ones I saw in the link posted on the other thread.

 

By the way, this is the front forks, no gas pressure that I know of other than 1 bar of atmospheric when I close them up.  Rear shock is behaving a little more normally, with 18mm static and 36mm of rider sag.  I will add a little preload to this but generally seems to be working close to right in the back.

 

The good news is that it looks like I *do* have a firmer spring and less compression damping now.  Maybe.  The fork definitely doesn't seem to be binding, lots of smooth travel on the brakes now that I have the lighter fluid and very little evidence of stiction in the measurements (which is a surprise given what i've read about the Marzocchi's).

 

Going to pull them and see if I can figure out how to disassemble the fork caps from the cartridge on the weekend, more news then

[Tom M]

It sounds like you're in the ballpark Dale.  When I set up my forks I used 20-25mm static unladen sag (bike only), 35-40mm laden sag (w/rider) as targets. 

 

I know your forks are different than mine but fwiw I tried 7.5wt fork oil but it still wasn't as supple as I thought it should be so I went to 5wt and liked it better.

 

Like a lot of members here I also raised the forks 10mm and run a 170 rear tire instead of the stock 180, and I have a short kickstand stop.  All of those changes helped the handling.

[GuzziMoto]

Sorry for the confusion. I specifically said that the gas pressure, if you lost it, would have been from the shock. Sorry, but as you seem to have a general suspension issue I assumed that you were looking at both the forks AND the shock. If your shock looses gas pressure it will tend to squat too much when loaded, like when cornering, reducing ground clearance among other things.

Your rear shocks sag numbers do seem pretty good. There is more sag with you on the bike then I would like, but certainly within acceptable limits.

Your front numbers are still wrong and not within acceptable limits, but you seem to be measuring without your gear. Maybe you wear less gear then me, the gear I wear adds up to about 20 lbs. That is ten percent of the total weight. I am not sure how much difference your gear would make, but you should be measuring with it. It almost sounds like either the PO cut the stock fork springs shorter, or he replaced the stock fork springs with stiffer, but shorter, springs. To have that much free sag and such a small increase in sag with you on the bike says that your springs are stiff and/or short. 

If you are looking to keep the stand off the ground you want less sag, both with and without you on the bike. You want to keep the correct ratio of with you on to without you on as that tells you whether or not your spring rate is correct. I would also suggest you try to maintain a balance between the front and rear sag. They should be as close to equal as possible. That keeps the geometry of the bike steady. you want somewhere around a 20% (of total travel) increase in sag between without you on and with you on the bike. If you only have around a 10% increase (or less) in sag then the springs are too stiff which could result in an overly stiff and unsupple ride. Which seems to agree with what you are saying.

 

The caps should not be too hard to remove. Compress the springs, either with a spring compressor tool or a nail into the doorway of your shed at just the right height, and you should be able to loosen the jam nut and unthread the caps. Try to keep the damper rod from falling down in, and as a rule I back the adjusters, including preload, all the way off before I start.