Relay Replacement

[docc]

As it turns out, the Tech Sessions at this year's Ninth South'n Spine Raid largely surrounded relays and fuses. Sure there was that late night attempt to fashion a cross-over shim from a Dos Equis bottle cap, but that was really more just late night entertainment.

 

Much discussion has transpired over the years about the V11 relays. Some things are for sure: the original Siemans are not reliable (although there are forum members still running them with no trouble); the front two relays have the most stress; the relay bases, or sockets, can be a source of trouble.

 

I used all my spares to get another V11 re-started and its headlamps/charging circuits back working and am actively looking for new spares.  Over the years and 87,000 miles I have run (original) small Siemans, large Siemans, small and large Tycos, Bosch, GEI, and OMRON. While neither the Bosch or GEI gave me any trouble, I was impressed by the comparison posted by forum member Ryland3210 which compares the internals of the GEI and OMRON and discusses the importance of "suppression."

 

[As of 2017: Best V11 Relays: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19755&p=216605]

 

So, Number One: All of us should be carrying spare relays. Probably 3 or 4, but minimum of 2.

 

Number Two: I would really like some technical discussion about the electrical specifications and cross referenced availability. Is there any hope to walk into a Chrysler dealership and come out with a replacement relay? ( like, maybe: OMRON G8H-UA-007001/ Chrysler 3628A23D) ? ?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Funny this topic should come up, I just purchased 10 Omron relays from Digikey.com

I like to start with a new set for a new bike, 5 for my bro in Auckland

 

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=-987&y=-73&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=z2247-ND

 

The last time I bought relays the Omrons were made in USA

This batch was made in Italy of all places

I have never had a relay fail, but I'm sure they do, I use the old relays for projects like headlight relays etc.

 

Really you should never be stuck on the road for lack of a relay. The headlight relay is not necessary, the Interlock relay can be jumped out

and the start relay can also be jumped across. The only two I wouldn't mess with are the two associated with the ECU.

 

I helped a young guy with a Jeep recently, it had similar relays.

[fotoguzzi]

Pretty sure you could walk into NAPA or any auto parts store and match them up.. they are not a Guzzi only part.

[docc]

Pretty sure you could walk into NAPA or any auto parts store and match them up.. they are not a Guzzi only part.

And so it is: my local O'Reillys man took the time to look through the book for a match. Here's what we found:

 

1993-1997 Chrysler or GM accessory relay, 30 amp, made in China, 12-14 US dollars in 2013 money. Tax here in Tennessee adds almost 10%, so a set of five is $65.50.

 

K_Roy, which OMRON are you using, the G8HN-1C2T-R-DC12?

[docc]

The OMRON spec sheets make me dizzy. The relays seem to have dual current ratings: 10/20,  20/35.

 

What does it mean?? K_Roy??

[Kiwi_Roy]

I couldn't find the right part No before, here it is for sure

 

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=-987&y=-73&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=z2247-ND

 

The dual rating 20/35 means 20 Amps for normally closed / 35 Amps for Normally open, I suspect this is because the contact pressure is higher with the coil pulling the N/O contact closed.

The ones I bought are 20/10 but they have a 60 Amp inrush which is more than enough for the high starter solenoid current

 

Yes, I'm using the G8HN-1C2T-R-DC12, 

I wish they were smart enough to put an LED in them so you could tell when they are on, I put LEDs in the relay bases of my

V11 Sport wired from the 87 contact to chassis, it was the best improvement I ever made.

http://s1304.photobucket.com/user/Kiwi_Roy/slideshow/Relay%20LEDs

For it to come on the coil has to be energized and the 87 contact closed.

You can see in the last two shots the little tool I made to release the contacts from the base.

 

 

BTW, if you are going to order from Digikey I suggest you get a couple of CH-290-ND, these are not the exact match but they will replace the microswitch in your clutch/brake lever

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?vendor=0&keywords=CH290-ND

 

 

If you need to fix your relay bases here's how to get them apart.

http://i1304.photobucket.com/albums/s526/Kiwi_Roy/RelayBaseRepair_zps8809f6c1.jpg

 

Before installing the relays I wipe the base with a little Vaseline to help avoid corrosion.

[docc]

Forgive my layman's questions, but the Starter Relay is "normally open" and the Headlamp relay is "normally closed?"

[Kiwi_Roy]

The contacts are referred to as Normally Open or Normally Closed with no power on the coil

 

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif

 

If you look at the schematic the start relay uses both contacts, the N/C contact feeds the headlight relay, the N/O contact feeds the starter solenoid.

The headlight relay uses the N/O contact, I think you are confused because the headlight relay is normally energized and the N/O contact is closed.

 

Don't feel bad, us sparkies get it wrong all the time.

[docc]

So, the "closed" aspect is regarding the coil? The relay is energized when the circuit to the coil is closed. I get that (If you think i got that )

 

While the Starter Relay is passing current in the N/O state, it is only energizing the coil of the Headlamp Relay, right? So, no significant current there.

 

The energized Headlamp Relay is passing current all the time in the N/C state which would be the higher of the relay ratings, yes? In the OMRON: 20 amps. That would certainly seem adequate as the fuse on that circuit is 15 amps.

 

Mouser shows the "same" relay rated 20/30 amps. Could that be OMRON's high-current version (RH)? And wouldn't it be the penultimate V11 relay (or just overkill)?

[Rufus]

I notice that the specifications for the GEI relay at PyroDan's site is rated for 20%-85% relative humidity.  I'm sure that all of you have operated your Guzzis in more than 85% rh. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

So, the "closed" aspect is regarding the coil? The relay is energized when the circuit to the coil is closed. I get that (If you think i got that )

 

While the Starter Relay is passing current in the N/O state, it is only energizing the coil of the Headlamp Relay, right? So, no significant current there.

 

The energized Headlamp Relay is passing current all the time in the N/C state which would be the higher of the relay ratings, yes? In the OMRON: 20 amps. That would certainly seem adequate as the fuse on that circuit is 15 amps.

 

Mouser shows the "same" relay rated 20/30 amps. Could that be OMRON's high-current version (RH)? And wouldn't it be the penultimate V11 relay (or just overkill)?

It's not correct to call a relay NO or NC, but you can say the contact is NO or NC, you sometimes see it called form "C"

Yes, energized when the coil is powered up then the NO contact closes and the NC contact opens

http://www.ni.com/white-paper/4782/en/  They don't show the coil, the same terminology is also applied to switches.

 

The Mouser datasheet says 20/10, just the same as the Digikey one. so they are miss-leading you.

On page 2 under Contact Data, I quote  "Inrush 60 A (NO), 30 A (NC), steady 20 A (NO), 10 A (NC)"

It's the steady state that you are interested in.

The start relay has a spike of about 50 Amps and the headlight relay would spike also until the filament heats up

Nothing on the bike would pull over 10 Amps

[JBBenson]

Can anybody tell me which relay is which? (2000 North American V11)

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

From front

Start Relay, Headlight Relay, Sidestand Relay, ECU Relay, Power Relay (fuel pump, coils & injectors)  at least that's the way on my bike

 

Pull the headlight relay it will go out but the bike will still start

Pull the start relay and headlight will go out but won't start

 

I suggest you get a strip of aluminium and drill 5 holes to tie all the relays together.

[JBBenson]

Thanks. Revised (version 2) photo so others may benefit:

 

Edited September 19, 2013 by JBBenson

[docc]

I used to label my relays, but took to putting the labels on the bike itself. I also prefer to label the "middle relay" as the Neutral Relay since it is actuated by the Neutral Switch and NOT the sidestand switch.