Starting issues

[Wheelsup]

Hi, I own a 2002 V11 naked sport which I purchased new and have clocked up 150000kklms.

Since new it has displaced the classic won’t start symptom.

When the starter button is pressed all I get is a clicking sound much like the starter relay cannot engage the starter.   Occasionally I have got nothing.

To date I have bypassed the side stand switch, replaced the right hand switch assembly, checked and cleaned  all connections,(finally removing the bullet connections under the tank LH side) regularly replace the relays (which occasionally rectified the problem).  Had the battery and charging system checked all fine.

However the problem isn’t improving.   During a casual discussion with a mechanic at work he suggested the stating relay maybe the issue.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

Regards Bob K  

[Wheelsup]

Oops sorry should have said starting

Solenoid

 

Bob K

[Kiwi_Roy]

Test the solenoid by jumping a wire from the large hot terminal to the small spade connector, this will bypass all the other wiring.

Touch the terminals firmly because the current inrush is over 40 Amps

 

Other Guzzis develop  Startus Interuptus when the ignition switch builds up resistance, it's not so common with a V11 Sport but it may be yours is wired differently than mine.

 

Swap out the start relay with one of the others.

 

If it cranks with the solenoid but not with the start button then measure the Voltage at the spade connector while you press start and report back.

 

 

Actually this V11 sport does have the high current passing through the ignition switch, my 2001 doesn't.

If yours is like this my moneys on a dirty switch. Wiggle the switch and try again.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif

(sorry the schematic has been removed, if you look at the sketch I posted further down the page I show a switch with note 1) updated Jan 10 2014

 

The problem usually occurs with age as the grease dries out, but you say since new, let's get to the bottom of it, look for a PM

[Wheelsup]

That's Kiwi_Roy I will try the bypass.  Unfortunately I'm on my night shift swing and not in the best frame of mind for electrics.  Excuse my ignorance but what is a PM?

 

Regards Bob K

[Kiwi_Roy]

PM = Personal Message

 

Up at the top of the page next to your handle (at least on my Mac) you should see a little envelope with a number in it

Click on the envelope to see your personal messages.

 

 

I need an e-mail address so I can send you some sketches.

[luhbo]

You still have the option to leave everything as it is, Bob. You have only 2 posts here on this forum, nonetheless your V11 has made 150.000kms. What's the secret? Because it didn't know of the internet - or despite it didn't know of the internet?

150.000km is a good point to clean or even replace the commutator brushes. It will cure your problem. Don't fiddle with anything else. On your side of the planet it's high riding time now, isn't it?

 

Hubert

[Chuck]

You say it's done it since new. Hmmm. My first thought was the start relay.. the most forward one in the stack.. or the terminals it fits into. My Scura does this occasionally, and all I have to do is pull the relay, spritz the legs (with Caig DeOxit Gold) of it and the relay base, wiggle it around a bit, you get the picture. But you say putting a new relay in it fixes it for a while sometimes? Hmmm again. Maybe it's a combination of corrosion on the relay base, a connector, and ignition switch finally making a click? I'd take everything in the circuit apart and spritz DeOxit in every connector.

Now, it could be that it is the solenoid is hanging up. I've seen that one, too, but again, you said it's done it since new, so I wonder about that. At any rate, I'd replace (or clean) it if the above doesn't do it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

As chuck says, it could be the relay base but I always suspect the Ignition switch.

Do the jumper test I mentioned first, If it cranks normally it's not the starter or solenoid.

 

At 2002 the grease in your switch will be quite stiff for sure, it tends to hold the pressure off the contacts making them high resistance (mine was around 18 Ohms before I cleaned it, even 0.5 Ohms is too much if the solenoid relies on the switch). Wipe out the old grease, don't use harsh solvents and replace with fresh Vaseline. It's a sure sign of stiff grease if it starts once you wiggle the switch a few times,

I think you said earlier you have eliminated the bullet connectors under the tank, You would not hear the start relay click if they were the problem.

 

Also check the main ground where it attaches to the gearbox, mine is under the seat release bracket which is stupid.

Another member here smoked the wiring loom because of a loose ground, the heavy starting current will try to find it's way back through

the small ground wires attached to other items like the regulator.

 

Here is a sketch explaining the heavy solenoid current.

Read the note about the heavy current then study the schematic in your owners manual, follow the wiring back from the starter solenoid all the way to the battery looking for any weak points.

I suggest you wire a small lamp from the spade terminal to chassis, tape it somewhere safe until you next experience starting issue, it will act like a crude Voltmeter, always available when it's needed.

The lamp should glow at near full brightness with the appropriate cranking while the start button is pressed.  If it fails to start a quick glance will give you a valuable clue as to where the problem lies.  If it glows dimly, look to the bike wiring, if it glows at full brightness look to the starter.

All this of course assumes you have a good battery, if the tail light goes out when you press start that's a clue you have battery or connection  problems (the tail light uses a different contact in the ignition switch)

 

BTW, If you measure the current going to the solenoid all you will measure is the 10 Amps going to the lighter coil because it drops too quick for the meter to pick up. I sometimes wonder if the factory is aware of the heavy coil because I haven't seen it on any of their schematics.

The Bosch starter solenoids have the second coil also.

[Wheelsup]

WOW.  Thanks for all the input guys.  Finally got back to the forum.  Haven't been able to address the issue as yet I've got a major reshuffle of my workshop and work commitments have me working most weekends.   Wife needs the area for her fish breeding hobby.   As it makes money and my work shop doesn't so economics wins out.

 

In answer to LUHBO I’ve a really good Guzzi tech  Tommy Newell   (Don Newell Motorcycles) however this has him stumped as well.  And yes it’s good riding season.   But to be honest here in Queensland it’s always good weather to ride.  Just as a side note sometimes the issue is strange.  I can't seem to determine common factors.  As an example I rode to work almost every day last week (100klms round trip) and after the first day no issues, started fine.  This week every, every day the gremlin appeared!!.  Often once the bike has been running she starts fine, other days it will play up every time or it will occur intermittently.

[docc]

I'm with Kiwi_Roy on taking the ignition switch apart and giving it a good clean and service! Check that ground!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry, it won't fix itself, you need to do some testing.

 

I suspect your bike must be wired with the solenoid through the ignition switch as per Note 1 in the sketch I posted further back.

 

Next time it won't crank, flick the ignition switch a few times.

If that doesn't fix it do the jumper trick from the large hot terminal to the spade connector, that should get it running or at the least will tell you where to look.

 

Does the pump always prime for 2 seconds?

 

Report back.

 

I sent you a PM

 

"Startus Interuptus" is a very common topic on a different Guzzi forum covering other models, my V11 Sport is wired without the solenoid going through the ignition switch so I haven't had that particular problem, sometimes the side-stand switch fails to make contact but then the pump doesn't prime either. (I know how to fix that but I quite like having the stand switch even though my other 3 Guzzis are without)