V11 Geometry changes

[docc]

Help me out here, if you will:

 

We all know the early (1999-2001) V11 Sport "RedFrame" had 1471mm wheelbase and 4,5 inch rear wheel/ 170 section tire.

 

The 2002 LeMans came in at 1490mm and 5,5inch/180 rear which remains til the end of production with the Scura/R in 2005.

 

Both have twin plate clutches. (Even the Scura/R?)

 

Now, it gets muddy (and "dark" ):

 

The Rosso Mandello (a limited numbered edition of 300 and another un-numbered edition of maybe 300 more) in 2001 has the early, unbraced frame (but painted black) with 1471mm wheelbase, 4,5 inch/170 rear. The triple tree change give it a different rake/trail that was likely shared with later Sports in the 2000-2001 series.  Single plate clutch with aluminum flywheel.

 

Both the Scura and Tenni appear as only (US) 2002 models, with the same 1490mm wheelbase braced frame and 5,5 inch/180 section rear. Both have the lightweight aluminum flywheel and single plate clutch. The Scura and Tenni frames (wheelbase)/rear wheels are the same.

 

*It is known that year models in Europe precede the rest of the world by a year and may even have lasted a year longer. (I'm not sure there are any 2005 V11 in the US, and not likely any 1999).

 

I would say there are Three Generations of the V11, but it might not be that simple . . .

[chamberlin]

oooooh docc, now this is the kind of post that you can sink your teeth into. The European thing is a bit of a wrench in the works, but I think the dates and details are manageable...afterall, they all came out of the same factory. I'm still learning, but these are the kinds of model variances that I wanted to pin down in a FAQ rewrite.

[docc]

Rosso Mandello guys should be easily able to confirm they are 1471/ 4,5-170 , but different rake/trail? If so, how is that accomplished?

 

Scura folks can say if they have 1490 braced frames. 5,5/180 rear. (?)

 

Tenni frames are long accepted as 1490; 5,5/180, no different than the first V11LeMans.

 

All three of these have the only single plate clutches in the V11 series unless I am mistaken.

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

Docc .... I forget the actual numbers but I vaguely remember Greg Field posting the details at some point. What little I remember is the Rosso Mandello had the early frame and steeper rake but different triple clamps with a different trail. I have looked for that post but cannot find it yet. I will keep looking ....

[docc]

Jeez, but that was hard to find: A post by Greg Field regarding the change of triple clamps, but not just for the Rosso Mandello, but by serial number:

 

"What is meaningful is a discussion of triple clamps. Early (to frame 113032) bikes used triple clamps with 1/2 degree steeper rake. It is these that show the greatest tendency to instability, though even the later ones sometimes do, too."

 

With this clarification:

 

"I'm pretty damn sure the steering angle on the frame was unchanged from beginning through the last pre-LeMans bike. All red-colored frames have the same part number. The part number was changed for the Rosso Mandello because it is coated black. The angle change was made in the triple clamps at the frame number listed earlier."

 

And further clarification here, on post#164:

 

" The later triple clamps include a 1/2-degree of cant compared to the steering axis. These gray "canted" triple clamps were used through the end of the red-frames. In general, if your red-frame's forks have an axle nut, they also have the early non-"canted" clamps and if your red-frame has an axle that screws directly into the fork leg, it has the "canted" clamps. There is some crossover between axle-fixing arrangements and clamps, though, and Guzzi offered a kit of the "canted" clamps for people who wanted to reduce twitchiness of their early bikes, so any combination of parts is possible. Rosso Mandellos had black "canted" triple clamps. Starting with the LeMans, Guzzi again fitted non-"canted" clamps, but they were painted black."

 

And these part numbers under the upper triple clamp, again apparently not unique to the Rosso Mandello:

 

"Does it read "01493100" or "01493130" (both early) or "501452" (most late)?"

[helicopterjim R.I.P.]

Nice job sorting the wheat from the chaff ....... and a fair bit of that chaff was well used as bedding for the not yet steers .... if'n you knows what I means!!!

 

( ... and if'n you don't ...... well then I can explain it for ya!)

[docc]

Still looking for a Scura owner to confirm wheelbase and rear rim size . . .

 

Could we say the Scura is a naked Tenni with Öhlins and fork mounted flyscreen?

[chamberlin]

Just a tidbit of info I found today regarding the 2004 V11 Ballabio (which doesn't directly apply to the conversation above but....)

 

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/8/707/Motorcycle-Article/2004-BMW-Rockster-vs--Moto-Guzzi-Ballabio.aspx

 

"Its 25-degree rake with 103mm of trail is much more radical steering geometry than the BMW Rockster's...."

 

Maybe it's about time we start a repository data gathering thread, where the first post will hold all the info (updated regularly) and the subsequent posts will be people chiming in with factual data?

[docc]

I've changed the topic title to attract more information gathering. Once we've mined a goodly portion of the developmental changes, we can amend the FAQ for model year changes.

 

I have Model Year Catalogs from US year 2000 through 2004. Two for 2001 and two for 2002. There are certainly a number of conflicting specifications throughout. Some of this from the difference in model years for Europe and the rest of the world (for example, the LeMans was introduced in the States as a 2002, but I have a 2001 catalog depicting it). This is why I would propose categorizing by Three Generations of the V11. Let's hope it can stay that simple.

 

>All of the castor/rake specs I can find in print show 25˚. I could have sworn the early Sport was 24.5˚, but I can't find it written anywhere. The LeMans appears to be 25˚, but is this true for all models 2002-2004(5)? 

 

>Wheelbase is a simple measure and may be helpful. 1st Generation Sports and the Rosso Mandello were said to have 1471mm (57.9inches). But wouldn't the 1/2˚ rake change with the triple clamp revision have changed the wheelbase slightly? (RM and Sports after SN 113032 with "canted" triple clamps)

 

>The LeMans (US2002) brought a revised frame with visible bracing across the lower gearbox, braced subframe structures both front and rear, and a 1490mm wheelbase (58.6 inches). This should include the first year Lemans, Tenni, Scura, and Sport Naked. These bikes are also characterized by white face Veglia gauges, 'fuzzy' engine paint, and no front crossover exhaust pipe. Neither the Tenni nor the Scura are shown in my catalogs.

 

>Catalog of 2003 shows wheelbase of 58.6 inches and 2004: 59 inches. Models looks identical with the addition of the Coppa Italia paint scheme to the Cafe Sport in '04. Were they just rounding off for the North American market in the 2004 catalog? (These are V11 with black face ITI gauges and a cross-over front pipe.)

 

If you all will please help edit this information, it would be most appreciated!

[Camn]

Scura wheelbase and rear rim size:

 

I have one original leaflet "V11 Sport Scura" (avatar on the left) in German language. It gives as "total length" 2150 mm.  When compared to the data of the official Workshop Manuals, total lenght 2150 mm corresponds to wheelbase 1490 mm (and total length 2130 mm to wheel base 1471 mm).  So (having not measured myself) my interpretation is that the wheelbase of Scura is 1490 mm.

 

Other Scura specific data of the leaflet: Compression 9,5:1, Hydraulic driven one-disc dry clutch, Front suspension 43 Öhlins with 120 mm stroke, Rear suspension Öhlins with 70 mm stroke, Rim size (back) 5,50x17", Wheel size (back) 180/55-ZR17.

 

According Guzzi Spare Part Catalog GU01301 for Lemans/Sport Naked 2001-2002 (including Scura and Tenni but not Rosso Mandello) the part numbers for "fork upper plate"/GU01493160 (isn't this the upper tripple clamp) and "stem base"/GU01494060 (steering shaft and lower tripple clamp) are the same for LeMans, LeMans Tenni, Sport Naked and Scura.

[docc]

[EDIT: chamberlin scanned an entire sales brochure that we are trying to save as an archived file here.]

 

Cool! Nicely done! True, I have that one and also true the 'purple' Sport is a 2002 (no front cross-over).

 

The 2004 sales catalog pictures your gray Sport, but it's one of those mini side views.

 

The 1999-2001 Green V11 Sport is pictured in two of the 2002 catalogs I have. The best representation of 2002 bikes I have is in a 2001 catalog, which may be accurate for European releases.

 

I agree about categorization by feature set. Camn just sent me some extensive summaries of published specifications and specific brochures on special models. Buddy, we've got our work cut out for us making this both accurate AND concise! Already, we're mining information on two separate threads on two separate sub-forums.

[docc]

The V11 Workshop Manual "update" of 4/03 covering the MY2003 does not appear to have the dimensioned drawings of the frame as does the 3/01 manual. Neither does the fork diagram dimension the offset of the forks to the steering head.

 

Is there a V11 workshop manual before 3/01, or between 3/01 and 4/03?

[chamberlin]

p.s. just got a few more brochures today, I'll try to get them scanned this weekend...

 

p.p.s. there is a 2001 workshop manual on eBay for anyone interested. would sure love to find a workshop manual like you are suggesting might exist docc, an early 2003 edition.

[docc]

I found the V11 Workshop Manual "Update" (4/03) here at Teo Lamers in the Netherlands.

 

No one has come forward to say there have been any other Workshop Manuals than the 03/01 and the 04/03 update.

 

Still have not heard back from sp838 on his source material on the 26˚ frame change.

[milar]

I have the V11 Sport Scura brochure in English.  I can confirm the wheelbase is listed as 1,490mm and the rear wheel size is 180/55.

 

Mike