Charging Issues-Very Odd

[moto fugazzi]

Here's an odd situation. My bike runs perfectly until I use the high beam, which has LED Aux lights connected with a relay, which causes them to go to full brightness. My voltmeter reads 14.1-14.2v with just the low beam on, then it jumps up to 14.4-14.5v when the high beam w/aux lights. BUT, my AFR meter also changes from 13.5:1 to 14.0:1, and the bike runs lean at that point, and therefore runs like garbage. When I turn on my Oxford heated grips, the voltmeter drops to 12.7 instantly.

When the heated grips and/or the Aux lights are used (either by themselves or together), the voltmeter remains at 14.1 and the bike runs perfectly. 

 

Here's the info on the bike:

2001 V11 Sport

Stock Regulator, headlight wired up normally from the factory

Trucklite Phase 7 Headlamp: 22W (1.8A) low beam,  44W (3.6A)high beam

LED Aux Lights 28W each-56W (4.8A)total draw. Wired to a Fuzeblock, high beam relay wire is taken from the headlight switch. Here: http://stores.advmonster.com/waterproof-wireless-led-dimmer-with-high-beam-bypass/

Oxford Heated Grips 36W (3A) at max power

 

Now I realize that all together, this is too much for the alternator, and the battery will drain. But why would the Volts go up to 14.5V when I turn on the aux lights and high beams? Then drop to 12.7 when I add the heated grips?

Ken

 

Edit:

After disconnecting the aux lights, they seem to be the issue as far as the lean running goes. I disconnected them, and went for another ride, and when I turn on the high beams, the volt meter jumps to 14.6V. When the heated grips are turned on, the volts drop a little.

When I reconnected the aux lights and had them on at 100% with the low beam, the VM read 14.5, but the bike started running very lean again.

 

Update:

Last night I removed the high beam relay feed for the aux lights and took it for a ride today. Turned on the high beams, the aux lights, then heated grips, and the VM was still over 14.0. Somehow the lighting control unit was wreaking havoc with everything else (at least the high beam bypass circuit), but now all is well.

 

So why does voltage increase from 14.1 to 14.6V when I turn on the high beam?

[Kiwi_Roy]

The reason the Volts go up is because the regulator measures the and sets the Voltage at 13.8 after the headlight relay.

There's some voltage drop so the regulator boosts the battery up to make up for it.

The more load you have on the headlight relay the more the regulator boosts the Voltage

 

You can measure this drop directly, put your meter Red lead on battery + and the Black lead on the Black wire at the regulator (just pull the double connector apart enough to get the meter lead on)

 

Loads that don't go through the headlight relay e.g. lights with their own dedicated relay will not effect the battery Voltage.

 

As for the bad running I would first of all clean the ignition switch contacts it may be the Voltage drop through there causing the ECU to reset.

[moto fugazzi]

Thanks Roy, I was hoping you'd give me some insight here. After calling the seller of the aux. light module, he told me that the aux. lights should automatically go on when the bike is on, and they don't do that. He also recommended putting a diode on the high beam bypass as maybe some current is feeding back through the module. He's now sending a replacement, and I'll see how that works out. 

Like I mentioned before, the bike only runs poorly when I'm using the module with the high beam bypass on. After I disconnected it, I was able to run the bike with the high beams on, aux. lights at full brightness, and heated grips at full max, and the VM was still over 14 volts, and the bike ran great. I'll post more findings after I install the new module.

 

Last year I took apart the ignition switch, cleaned everything, and used vaseline as you recommended. I now have a big jar of it in my garage as well as a few assorted sizes of artists paintbrushes for applying it. My friends always ask why I have a giant jar of vaseline next to my motorcycles...

 

On a side note, I was getting pinging from 3-6k (60%+ throttle), and after retarding the timing with Guzzidiag, my bike now runs great! The warm up map can now also be reduced as far as how long it stays on. Very cool.

Ken

[Alfanatiker]

Think,with your LEDs "on" you have overload on the alternator. Unfortunately most LED-Beams have internal switching power supplies with constant current regulation which produce hard currentspikes in motos electrical system. Your "Module" (it's a pulse width modulation) does the rest. The currentspikes bring your alternator into magnetical saturation and the voltage breaks down in common mode with the spikes. The regulator also can't handle the spikes (10 kHz....1MHz).

 

Would be a good idea buffering the Module primaryly with a diode and an electrolytic with an foil condensator in parallel to damp the pulses.

 

Typical oscilogram of a swps (green: LED output voltage, red: input current)

http://postimg.org/image/4j2eiwbor/

[Kiwi_Roy]

Alfanatiker has a good point, I would think running the LED dimmer on its own fuse direct from the battery would take care of the spikes

Weird schematic with the light dimmer, there must be a switch or relay there also.

 

Battery - Fuse - Relay - Dimmer

If you still have the regular headlight I would leave the LED off during daylight hours.

[moto fugazzi]

 

Would be a good idea buffering the Module primaryly with a diode and an electrolytic with an foil condensator in parallel to damp the pulses.

 

 

Any idea what rating these should be? Electorlytic capacitor, I'm assuming (wired in parallel with each other)? 

Ken

[Alfanatiker]

Ok,

 

Diode: Schottky; Amp max ~ 2x Amp load; e.g for 2-3 Amps load -> Digikey FMB-G16L-ND

C1: Electrolytic; 1000-2000uF / Amp load; e.g for 2-3 Amps load -> Digikey 4482PHBK-ND

C2: Ceramic; 0,1uF; e.g -> Digikey 490-7514-1-ND

 

Ground C1 and ground load should be on the same point.(screw).

 

MG uses a similar "construction" on Breva, Norge, Griso and Stelvio for exclusively buffering the supply voltage for the ECU.

(e.g. see schematic Breva V1100; look for connector 61 and 62 - but nothing connected ex works, only a jumper in conn. 61). MG spares AP9100739 and AP8127491

 

Gunther

 

 

edit: Back in office today i searched for a better diode here in .at, also available at Digikey:  497-2737-5-ND   -->  higher forward current, higher reverse voltage, less forward voltage drop than FMB-G16L-ND

[moto fugazzi]

I just want to clarify before I get all of the parts. What is the thick black line at the bottom where C1 and C2 connect to?, and then there's a line that goes to the load. Where exactly does that get connected?

 

Would I be better off just replacing the regulator with the Electrosport ESR510?

Ken

 

After talking to my electronics friend, I understand now. The caps bleed off extra volts to ground, and the diode keeps it from feeding back to the supply.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The thick black line represents the chassis, the idea is to connect at the same point so you don't introduce noise, I think the components would work best as close to the dimmer module as practical.

 

I belive Alfanatiker is thinking the dimmer module is somhow creating interference that's effecting the ECU, upsetting the mixture as you mention in the original post.

 

Another idea would be to leave that point above the chassis but connect it to a seperate negative wire from the battery also picking up the wire from High Beam switch that says "to ground"

Electrical noise can be very difficult at times.

[moto fugazzi]

Out of curiosity, will this setup be similar to what noise filters do for car radios? I have one of those laying around, plus it's in a nice case.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_003S10A/American-International-S-10A.html?tp=61807

 

Also, the dimmer module is right next to the ECU. Could moving or shielding it make a difference?

[Alfanatiker]

 

 

Out of curiosity, will this setup be similar to what noise filters do for car radios? I have one of those laying around, plus it's in a nice case.

No, this is a high frequency filter, which filters HF - Transients with minimal power but a wide frequency-spectrum and shortens them to ground.

 

 

 

I think the components would work best as close to the dimmer module as practical.

The closer the better.

 

 

To understand my schematic here is a very, very simple explanation:

 

Imagine C1 ist a little energy storage. With no load C1 is loaded near to battery voltage (and is therefore full of energy). The schottky lets the current only flow from + to direction load, load to + is impossible. -> the schottky is a one-way-valve. Therefore other loads onboard cannot consume capacitors stored energy.

 

Now you switch your load to on, the first current spike appears, system voltage breaks down. This is capacitors moment: He gives the stored energy to load. Current spike disappears, system voltage raises to its old value and capacitor will be reloaded out of the battery and so on.

 

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_capacitor

 

 

I can't give a one-size-fits-all solution via the forum because i've to less information, it always will be a try and error. With your bike in my garage and my scope it would be peanuts.

 

Another idea would be to use my schematic on the ECU to provide stable voltage for it (injector timing is voltage dependent !!) .

Use it for pin 17 of the ECU and relay No. 49 . Fuse F1 -> Schottky -> Electrolytic 10.000 uF with 1nF in parallel to negative ground -> Relay pin 30 + ECU pin 17.

 

Gunther

v11-schematic.pdf

[moto fugazzi]

 

 

 

Out of curiosity, will this setup be similar to what noise filters do for car radios? I have one of those laying around, plus it's in a nice case.

No, this is a high frequency filter, which filters HF - Transients with minimal power but a wide frequency-spectrum and shortens them to ground.

 

 

 

I think the components would work best as close to the dimmer module as practical.

 

 

Another idea would be to use my schematic on the ECU to provide stable voltage for it (injector timing is voltage dependent !!) .

Use it for pin 17 of the ECU and relay No. 49 . Fuse F1 -> Schottky -> Electrolytic 10.000 uF with 1nF in parallel to negative ground -> Relay pin 30 + ECU pin 17.

 

Gunther

 

In trying this idea, can I insert the Schottky into fuse F1 and run the caps to negative ground instead of taping into the wiring harness? That would just be temporary until I make sure it works correctly. Or do I need to go closer to the relay?

Thanks again for all of the help!

[Alfanatiker]

 

 

In trying this idea, can I insert the Schottky into fuse F1 and run the caps to negative ground instead of taping into the wiring harness?

Sure, good idea, could be mine   . The schottky works as fuse also. It withstands repetitive pulses of 250 amps for 10 milliseconds but will be demaged when the current exceeds 8 amps constantly.

 

 

Or do I need to go closer to the relay?

No, not necessary. Should work.

 

 

Before you do anything: Compare  the V11 schematic around F1, the relay and the ECU with your motos reality carefully. Mario and Luigi in Mandello are unpredictable - they are used to drink red wine out of the barrel :-)

 

Gunther

[Kiwi_Roy]

I would think the ECU is sufficiently robust already, it's connected directly to the battery through it's own fuse, the only link to the rest of the bike is via the coil of the ECU relay. The battery is after all like a huge capacitor with very low impedance. Inside the ECU it will have a capacitor and diode not unlike your circuit.

[Alfanatiker]

Age of battery?

Nevertheless, its worth to try. The parts cost only a few bucks.

Agree, if the alternator runs under constant overload courios things happen and no electronics can help.

 

Why do you think MG did this? - Power supply for the ECU is directly connected to battery without relay, ECU of CARC-models is alive as long as a battery is connected.

( they had heavy problems after installing ABS :-)