Scud Posted January 4, 2015 Author Posted January 4, 2015 WOW! What an amazing difference. I take back everything I said about my ex BMW. Now I would compare the handling favorably to my ex Ducati Sport 1000. 60 miles - half of it the steepest, twistiest roads within range, and then a freeway ride home. The bike feels way more predictable in corners - especially steep downhill curves, where I was previously feeling very hesitant. At 90mph (145kph) it is still rock-solid, even over the "rain-grooves" that are common on California freeways - I had some unnerving wobbles before, tightened the damper one click and still had them, but they are gone now. Thanks everyone for the help. I will keep learning about the suspension settings and check the sag again properly soon - but this is VERY encouraging and probably the most important thing I've done yet to the bike. It seems the previous owner may have made the same mistake as I did (by believing the Ohlins manual) and had it set at minimum preload (but thought it was maximum). Maybe the stock springs will work for me after all. @Camn - I've been to Helsinki in January; I understand. I hope this picture from this morning helps you feel warmer (although I had to stop there to thaw my fingers on the valve covers).
Baldini Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 ... I've been to Helsinki in January; I understand... me too! lovely country. Long time ago: I think I saw -26 & was surprised it didn't feel as cold as a damp day in Mid-Wales (cos of low humidity they say). Good people introduced us to Gloggi (sp?) & that kept us warm inside . Scud - you might try raising forks in triple clamps too. I have third engraved ring on fork leg, flush w clip on (fork raised about 10mm or so). More weight over front wheel: bike feels more planted in corners. Obviously it's lowering front of bike, so clearances everywhere need checking. Sidestand can be tucked further in by cutting rubber stop. It'll all help, but Scura is style a big, heavy, flexibike & will get out of shape when the twisties get bumpy or the bumps get twisty!
Scud Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 Scud - you might try raising forks in triple clamps too. I have third engraved ring on fork leg, flush w clip on (fork raised about 10mm or so). More weight over front wheel: bike feels more planted in corners. Obviously it's lowering front of bike, so clearances everywhere need checking. Sidestand can be tucked further in by cutting rubber stop. It'll all help, but Scura is style a big, heavy, flexibike & will get out of shape when the twisties get bumpy or the bumps get twisty! The change in preload made such a difference in the ride height that I could feel it the second I got underway. Raising the forks would probably put it back close to the original ride-height. I like big, heavy bikes for long rides - and there's nothing else like a big twin powering up a mountain. It's taken me a while to get my sport-bike feel back. The KTM Adventure that I traded for the Scura probably had twice the suspension travel - and huge knobby tires - so even the incorrectly set Scura felt incredibly precise at first. Back to work today - so I need to take a time-out from my holiday Scura-obsession. However, I'll get this all sorted as soon as possible (and after fresh oil). I appreciate your experience and advice.
luhbo Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 6/2015 I took the front schocks up as far as possible (lowers the front) and compensated this partly by tightening the spring preload more. My thought was to have a possibility to lower the front even more by loosening the spring preload (I don't like the slight tendency of my Scura to wobble at speeds over 120 km/h). .... Could it be that you're working (or thinking) in the wrong direction? Do I understand you right when I read this so that you lowered the front for getting a more stable bike? Besides that, being wobbly above 120 km/h sounds like a bigger problem, loose sub frame, empty or stuck shocks, dead wheel bearings, something like that, not like a few millimeters missing or too much of sag. Hubert
Zooter Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Score 1 for logical thinking. Got to wonder how many springs got changed by shyster dealers when owners complained they couldn't adjust for themselves. "I set it to max and it's still soft".
Camn Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 @ScudThank you for the "summer" picture. I like those long mufflers – I have never have had them. Mine was equipped with a bit too short Bos Dampers (made for Thriumph Speed Triple originally) when I bought my Scura. It has been a very long time since I was "in the summer of California" we also do have a short “warm summer" (Jun-Aug), 3 Months more or less…@luhboYou write very fluent English, although I see more your texts on the German V11 forum. I mention this because the V11 population is quite notable in Germany and there are many commonly recognized Guzzi specialists over there. I once wrote down an opinion of one of them and it was something like this: “All V11 models without fairing have a tendency to wobble. This is due to different factors. It is very important to bring more weight to the front wheel. This brings stability. In principle it is not wrong to push the front shocks more through the triple clamps because you get a bit more weight to the front wheel. The wheel base gets also shorter but the front wheel receives also more weight.”So when testing different ways to get more stability, I have tested also this (front shocks all the way up). Everything else has been checked earlier. New bearings everywhere, all bolts tight on the chassis, the suspension fully serviced, went back to the original handle bars. Next summer I will install the original Brembo Serie Oro brake discs (1,65 kg). I tried a very lightweight set of “Braking” discs (1,30 kg) and the difference was notable (worse). I now have worn-out Brembo discs, which weigh somewhere in the middle. But our max speed limit is 120 km/h… so officially I have no problems here... only on German freeways...
luhbo Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 In my opinion weight on the front wheel is one thing (and I think the V11 is blessed with enough weight on the front), the other thing, the other factor, is the geometry. Lowering the front pushes its characteristics more versus agility. If I had such a wobbly problem with my short KR I'd definitely go the other direction: pushing out the legs and adding some sag (reducing the preload) on the front and especially on the rear. Onroad, perhaps not on-race-track, a good sag of about 1/4 to 1/3 of the overall travel makes a nice life insurance. In case one runs into problems with this setting, over bumps or on the brake, then I think it's time to look for stiffer springs and not to increase the preload (or decrease the air gap). And hey, "all V11 without fairing have a tendency to wobble": that's a little overboard, regardless how often the internet copies their quotes. Besides that, the Scura has a fairing, so what if next time the specialists show up with exactly the opposite Fatwa Hubert 1
GuzziMoto Posted January 5, 2015 Posted January 5, 2015 Some of the logic being thrown about here flies in the face of physics and motorcycle geometry. I am glad the OP found a better ride by adjusting his suspension. I am not clear on how he did it but it sounds like he raised the rear of the bike and lowered the front. That is not an uncommon practice, but it is usually done to make a motorcycle steer faster, not make it more stable. Doing so steepens the rake and reduces the trail, both of which contribute to quicker steering and less effort to steer. Neither is conducive to more stability. Doing this will also put SLIGHTLY more weight on the front wheel, but hardly enough to make the motorcycle more stable as a result. Try measuring with a set of scales to see how little it changes. While I like the idea of steeper rake I do not like giving up the trail that goes with the raise the back drop the front approach, trail is really important for stability. To each their own. All I can say here is the wife's red frame V11 (steeper rake from factory) does not have things like that done to it, it steers very well, does not have a steering damper, and does not wobble at any speed. If yours wobbles something is likely wrong. 1
Scud Posted January 5, 2015 Author Posted January 5, 2015 I am glad the OP found a better ride by adjusting his suspension. I am not clear on how he did it but it sounds like he raised the rear of the bike and lowered the front. The only change I made was to increase the preload by 11 full rotations, because it was (perhaps mistakenly) set at minimum preload. This raised the front and it is more stable (which I called "predictable" earlier, but I think "stable" is a more descriptive word.) I didn't touch the back, and I'm not sure if the previous owner did. I am just in my suspension-tuning infancy here, but I did notice that Camn's front free sag (no rider) was almost identical to my original setting (41 for me and 40 for him). The target range, according to the Ohlins fork manual, is 25-30. I had some high-speed wobbles when mine measured 41, but after adjusting it 11 full rotations (presumably to 30), the wobbles went away (I did not change anything else, not even the damper or tire pressure). Next step for me: try to get all front and rear sag measurements as close to the middle of the factory-spec ranges as possible - and then tinker from there if I still feel the need. If there's ever a trade-off, I prefer stability over quick steering.
GuzziMoto Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I am glad the OP found a better ride by adjusting his suspension. I am not clear on how he did it but it sounds like he raised the rear of the bike and lowered the front. The only change I made was to increase the preload by 11 full rotations, because it was (perhaps mistakenly) set at minimum preload. This raised the front and it is more stable (which I called "predictable" earlier, but I think "stable" is a more descriptive word.) I didn't touch the back, and I'm not sure if the previous owner did. I am just in my suspension-tuning infancy here, but I did notice that Camn's front free sag (no rider) was almost identical to my original setting (41 for me and 40 for him). The target range, according to the Ohlins fork manual, is 25-30. I had some high-speed wobbles when mine measured 41, but after adjusting it 11 full rotations (presumably to 30), the wobbles went away (I did not change anything else, not even the damper or tire pressure). Next step for me: try to get all front and rear sag measurements as close to the middle of the factory-spec ranges as possible - and then tinker from there if I still feel the need. If there's ever a trade-off, I prefer stability over quick steering. Sounds good. Setting sag correctly is often over looked and is really the first thing to do when setting up suspension. It will also tell you if your springs are too stiff, too soft, or just right. Perhaps, at least for me, some of the confusion comes from talk of raising or lowering the forks. Sometimes it is not clear if you mean raising the whole front end or sliding the forks up through the triple clamps which results in lowering the front of the motorcycle (which sounds like what Camn is talking about.
Scud Posted January 6, 2015 Author Posted January 6, 2015 I talked with some very helpful (and tolerant of newbies) people at Kyle Racing (Öhlins specialist near Laguna Seca Raceway). FWIW - they said they would not bother with changing the oil yet, because it is a closed system and that type of oil does not degrade. But they also recommend a change every few years even with minimal use... so I am just going to do it now, which has the added benefit of helping me learn more about what's going in the forks. Oil and special tools on the way. I could have saved $12 in shipping by picking it up myself. Seriously considered it; they're just up the road a piece... (see map).
Camn Posted January 6, 2015 Posted January 6, 2015 I prefer stability over quick steering Mee too. I just try to achieve this goal according my abilities. Maybe I read too much... opinions... but also the Guzzi and Öhlins manuals. I go step by step and try to keep it safe. sliding the forks up through the triple clamps which results in lowering the front of the motorcycle Yes, this is what I have done. First as much as was needed to go back to the original handle bars (22 mm, to fix them) and after that more and more. I have no hesitation to go back if needed. The only "Guzzi" hint about how much the front forks should come out (of the handle bars this time) I have found on the V11 Owners Manual 11/2003: “ Sliders should come out from the handle hub by about 2 mm, that is up to the first round mark on the very slider.” This means 22 mm through the upper triple clamp (measured without the handle bars). When I received my bike the front forks were only 12 mm through the upper triple clamp (with a “superbike” handlebar installed). With this set up the tendency to wobble was the worst. Right now I have the front shocks 18 mm more through the upper triple clamp than what is the “manual recommendation” (and original handle bars on).
Scud Posted January 7, 2015 Author Posted January 7, 2015 Cool - we've had two Öhlins-oriented sub-topics. One to help us pronounce Swedish correctly, and another to help us get 'em dialed in for the road - I hope something here can help Camn's bike lose the wobbles. Back to our OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Darkening. I am hoping to receive a street-legal black license plate. In the 1960s, California plates were black with yellow lettering. Our DMV recently made "legacy" plates available and I got my application in on time - and the website has changed from "Applications Received" to "Approved Applications". Hopefully, we will see SCURA or MG SCURA on the back soon. Meanwhile, I will try to time the coating of various parts with an upcoming business trip to minimize my perceived down-time.
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