Timing Gear Set - Replacing timing chain

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, swooshdave said:

Without a doubt, but with all things there's a cost/value question. The question would be what else could I spend the $700+ on as the stock pump probably won't fail. So it comes down to your priorities and funding levels.

I take all the points made but as the old saying goes, long after you've forgotten the cost the quality remains. I btw didn't replace my V11 pump when I did the gear upgrade. I didn't realize Joes pumps were available and there was some fitment issues due to patchy quality of some aftermarket pumps around that time so I stuck with the std pump. I did however use a DHS pump I'd had for years in the Daytona rebuild.

Ciao

[docc]

From the peanut gallery, I have to say how much I admire, and so appreciate, this fabulously detailed thread and all of the discussion. 

At this point in my V11's service life, it is good to know that the original oil pump is decently reliable. It is awesome to see (and hear!) a gear driven cam, but also consider the tensioner upgrades for my chain.

After all, I might have to tear into this old donk sometime in the next 111,000 miles . . . 

[MartyNZ]

Docc's experience shows that the standard V11 oil pump is durable and well suited to the V11 engine. If someone is keen to replace it with a different design, then fine, but for normal use, it may not offer any benefits. A higher capacity pump will absorb proportionally more engine power, and surplus pressure will be dumped by the relief valve. The standard pump still has enough capacity to allow use of the oil cooler (if the oil temp gets above 70degC, which is not happening this winter around here).

Guzziology says GU 30146400 pump (fitted to the V11) has been around since 1991. It has 16mm width gears instead of earlier 14mm gear pumps, but the oil pressure relief stayed the same.

This pump not the same as the 21mm Daytona/Centauro pump, which is not only bigger, but spins faster. Dave Richardson says "these pumps fail at about 35000km because of  the lack of a bearing on the driving shaft. A favorite solution was to copy the MGS01".

16mm V11 OEM pump https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=46944&sku=GU30146400&description=Oil+Pump+-+GU30146400

15mm gear aftermarket V11 pump. https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1985

[GuzziMoto]

Yes, Joe's pump is a bigger improvement when you have a Daytona / Centauro then when you have a V11.

That is what I have mine in. At the time I bought it he did not offer one for the V11 or I would have bought it as well. I expect both Guzzi's to last a lot longer. Because you can't buy a new Guzzi like that.They are not replaceable.

[sp838]

5 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

surplus pressure will be dumped by the relief valve. 

This (among other things you wrote) is a very good insight. Thanks for posting. 

[sp838]

On 6/26/2019 at 7:10 AM, MartyNZ said:

surplus pressure will be dumped by the relief valve.

So now the question begs.... can the relief valve from the MGS-01 be fitted to the V11 (assuming it would be designed to work with higher oil pressures from a higher capacity pump) ?

[luhbo]

Why would you want a higher oil pressure? What's wrong with the standard pressure?

[sp838]

Hmmm, looking at parts fiches for the MGS-01 and comparing to the V11, they appear to have the same oil pump and the same relief valve:

MGS-01 https://www.af1racing.com/store/ProdImages/st3/GU076.pdf

V11 https://www.af1racing.com/store/ProdImages/st3/GU016.pdf

51 minutes ago, luhbo said:

Why would you want a higher oil pressure? What's wrong with the standard pressure?

Higher oil pressure has been touted as one of the benefits of upgrading to the Caruso oil pump. MartyNZ countered that higher oil pressure would just result in the relief valve dumping the oil in the sump. Thereby negating the alleged benefit of higher oil pressure from the pump.

[luhbo]

That's why and what I asked you. What for do you want it in your V11 engine? What would be the exact benefit of a higher oil pressure, in this engine? Personally I can see none.

On the other hand, why not buy one and support the small suppliers.

[docc]

5 minutes ago, luhbo said:

That's why and what I asked you. What for do you want it in your V11 engine? What would be the exact benefit of a higher oil pressure, in this engine? Personally I can see none.

On the other hand, why not buy one and support the small suppliers.

Personally, I so value that second point.  

[sp838]

1 hour ago, luhbo said:

That's why and what I asked you. What for do you want it in your V11 engine? What would be the exact benefit of a higher oil pressure, in this engine? Personally I can see none.

On the other hand, why not buy one and support the small suppliers.

I've been teying to determine why the Caruso oil pump is worthwhile, all I get is some judgemental pablum about "quality". Why don't -you- tell me why, again other than the fact that it look nice. Docc's bike has over 100k miles on his. So again, what is the benefit of this pump?

[Lucky Phil]

A Dayton/Centauro and I would then assume an MGS-01 all run higher oil pressure than the V11 engine by virtue of its higher relief pressure setting.

The Caruso oil pump has the potential to support pressure by virtue of its greater pumping volume. It also means that it can cover system losses better if things get to a dire stated internally for whatever reasons.

A friend of mine had a relatively new MK4 Le mans years ago that would put the oil pressure light on in the summer at idle once warm running one particular grade of oil which I cant remember now. It was ok with 20W-50 under the same conditions though. I have always though that maybe the Guzzi engine is a little marginal with oil pressure at low rpm and high temps, Maybe.

Ciao

[MartyNZ]

On 6/29/2019 at 2:16 AM, sp838 said:

So now the question begs.... can the relief valve from the MGS-01 be fitted to the V11 (assuming it would be designed to work with higher oil pressures from a higher capacity pump) ?

The hi cam Guzzi engines (v10, Daytona /Centauro /MGS01) have two camshafts, so will need higher oil flow than a single cam V11. The normal running oil pressure and relief valve setting are likely to be similar for all engines with plain crankshaft bearings. Guzzi used a bigger pump on high cam engines to achieve optimum pressure because the oil flow is delivered to more outlets. So to answer your question, there's no value to fitting a hi cam relief valve to a V11.

There is a happy range of oil pressure in a piston engine with plain crank bearings. Too low and wear/damage occurs. Too high causes bearing scouring, among other bad things. The relief valve takes care of "too high" when the engine oil is cold or the engine is running at high rpm.

The flow of oil lubricates, and carries away heat and wear debris. Also important is the action of suspending moving parts from touching each other. That hydrodynamic wedge in crank bearings is important, and between the cam lobes and followers, it is critical. 

For me, this all means use good oil, change it regularly with a good filter, and avoid extended idling. 

[MartyNZ]

On 6/29/2019 at 5:15 AM, sp838 said:

Hmmm, looking at parts fiches for the MGS-01 and comparing to the V11, they appear to have the same oil pump and the same relief valve:

Good point. You are right, the manuals give the same pump part number for V10, MGS01, & V11. This conflicts with a paragraph from Guzziology;  perhaps things changed mid production. 

The manuals I have give these figures: V11 pressure regulator setting adjustment 3.8 - 4.2 kg/cmq, which is about 3.9 Bar, or 57 psi. The V10 manual says the same. The MGS01 Corsa manual gives the regulator setting as 5.5 Bar, 5.6 kilograms per square centimeter, or 80 pounds per sq inch. All done with a pump with gears 16 mm wide by 26.27 mm dia. On my bike the red light goes out, and it runs fine, so I don't want to change anything. 

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, MartyNZ said:

Good point. You are right, the manuals give the same pump part number for V10, MGS01, & V11. This conflicts with a paragraph from Guzziology;  perhaps things changed mid production. 

The manuals I have give these figures: V11 pressure regulator setting adjustment 3.8 - 4.2 kg/cmq, which is about 3.9 Bar, or 57 psi. The V10 manual says the same. The MGS01 Corsa manual gives the regulator setting as 5.5 Bar, 5.6 kilograms per square centimeter, or 80 pounds per sq inch. All done with a pump with gears 16 mm wide by 26.27 mm dia. On my bike the red light goes out, and it runs fine, so I don't want to change anything. 

My Daytona and Centauro workshop manuals(both) give the oil pressure relief setting as 5 bar along with a 5 stamped on the valve housing.

Ciao