Timing Gear Set - Replacing timing chain

[al_roethlisberger]

Interesting, might be worth checking into depending on cost.  Any idea on what they typically cost in the past, even if just ballpark?

 

There may not be any huge benefit, but I can say that the gear whine on my buddy's VFR was great to hear 

[Lucky Phil]

Interesting, might be worth checking into depending on cost.  Any idea on what they typically cost in the past, even if just ballpark?

 

There may not be any huge benefit, but I can say that the gear whine on my buddy's VFR was great to hear 

I wouldnt even venture an estimate and I cant even remember what I paid for mine around 6 years ago. Drop Joe a line and ask about the current price. He did mention to me he's in Italy this week so he may take a few days to reply.

 

Ciao 

[GuzziMoto]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I have two sets from Joe as well, just like Phil.

Also not installed yet, but they look to be really nice quality.

I remember the price for both sets was pretty high, but that was for two sets, and one set (for the Daytona) included a new oil pump. So, I don't think just a gear set for a V11 will be too bad.

[sp838]

What's the sales pitch on the CNC oil pump?

[swooshdave]

Do you have to use the new pump with the gear drive? Or is it an optional extra?

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, Mikko said:

I asked Joe if there was anything else I should concern myself with since I’ll be in that general area fiddling with stuff. Here is what he said:

Two  things I would check is

1- the bronze camshaft thrust spacer which should measure 7mm thick and have no wear ridges in it.

The upgrade flange is like in the picture attached with the 3 oil cut outs and I can supply if you require one, and this gives better lubrication and so wears less.

2- The oil pump requires checking that there is no play in the bearings before mounting the new steel oil pump gear so it runs true with the crankshaft gear.

Depending on the mileage of your oil pump It is also worth checking for the wear points as in the picture attached. If required I will also be making some new  CNC oil pumps to complement the new steel timing gear sets similar to the picture attached.

I won't know the cost of the oil pumps until they are completed but you can decide when ready should you  require one.

I will be in touch near the time when I have a better idea of delivery date but I am guessing it will be around the end of September/October.”

I covered this in my Joe Caruso timing gear install thread. Dont bother checking it just fit a new one. Tip....you can buy the old version much cheaper than the updated version and simply die grind the oil feed slots yourself in about 5 minutes.

 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, swooshdave said:

Do you have to use the new pump with the gear drive? Or is it an optional extra?

No I fitted the gears to my old pump but Joes new version is far superior to anything else out there I believe. His pump has the idler gear running on a steel shaft like a Ducati pump instead of the shaft being incorporated in the gear and it running in the alloy pump housing.

The whole upgrade is about quality improvements as Mikko outlined and that's exactly how I feel about most mods I undertake. Its an opportunity to correct the cost cutting and quality short cuts of a mass produced piece of engineering. It will never equal a factory race bike of course but its an interesting and satisfying engineering path to go down all the same.

Of course you could always start with something truly horrid in design and engineering terms like a Norton Commando or a Triumph twin but lets face it nobody wants to waste that much time:)

Ciao 

[sp838]

I'm still unclear as to what this pump does differently or better than the stock one. I have a set of the Caruso wheels, am planning on doing the swap at the end of the season. I understand the value of better engineered stuff, but "better engineered" has by definition a set of criteria and metrics by which you can say it is better. So other than the craftsmanship that went into making it, what does this pump do better than the stock one? Is it longer lasting before it wears out? Does it pump more oil? The difference in idler gear, for instance, what is the benefit of that?

[andy york]

Been a long time since I've heard the term "micro blued". Seems like that gentleman was from Wisconsin or Minn.

I had some stuff done way back with the invention of dirt. Glad to hear its still around.

andy

[Lucky Phil]

5 hours ago, sp838 said:

I'm still unclear as to what this pump does differently or better than the stock one. I have a set of the Caruso wheels, am planning on doing the swap at the end of the season. I understand the value of better engineered stuff, but "better engineered" has by definition a set of criteria and metrics by which you can say it is better. So other than the craftsmanship that went into making it, what does this pump do better than the stock one? Is it longer lasting before it wears out? Does it pump more oil? The difference in idler gear, for instance, what is the benefit of that?

The original pump isn't going to fail but as has been mentioned the pump from Joe is better quality and addresses some issues.

Most of the answers you are looking for are in the images. The pressed in steel support for the idler gear means the gear runs on a hardened steel shaft and not a gear supported on an integral shaft running in an alloy housing. The gear is better supported and the housing wear is eliminated as shown in the images. Some of the internal housing wear can be due to the minimal support of the original gear and a combination of wear between the shaft and the housing bore allowing the gear teeth faces to contact the housing internally causing damage which reduces oil pressure. Having the shaft rotate in the housing also means you lose oil pressure through the clearance between the shaft and the housing bore. 

Joes pump will last longer than the std pump and will pump slightly more oil due to less losses. Joes pump I believe also uses the later Daytona/Centauro/MGS-01 21mm wide pump gears as apposed to the 16mm V11 gears which means it has the highest volume oil pump of all the big block engines. So better, quality, higher volume, less losses and better durability probably sums it.      

I guess at the end of the day most people fall into 2 camps, those that think quality has value for its own sake and those that dont. Its a bit like people that pay big money for a beautiful original looking custom paint job without any orange peel etc. It has no practical value and is going to cop damage etc from road use but they still want and appreciate the quality.

Individual value systems.

Ciao     

[sp838]

On 6/20/2019 at 7:24 PM, Lucky Phil said:

I guess at the end of the day most people fall into 2 camps, those that think quality has value for its own sake and those that dont

lol, looks like someone has been reading Zen and the Art  of Motorcycle Maintenance, perhaps taking it a little too closely to heart. As I said up thread, I understand the value of better engineered parts. There is such thing as "gilding the lily" though. Quality for quality's sake is nice, but personally I'm more pragmatic than that. I want performance or longevity improvements for my money. I'ld happily plunk down the cash for an oil pump hand whittled by Leonardo Da Vinci, raised from the the dead, crafted lovingly from a solid block of platinum, but only if there was an actual measurable benefit for it. But if the stock Guzzi pump does the same job, despite being uglier or less refined, then it's staying. I'll spend my money on something else. Like a nice paint job.

[Lucky Phil]

36 minutes ago, sp838 said:

lol, looks like someone has been reading Zen and the Art  of Motorcycle Maintenance, perhaps taking it a little too closely to heart. As I said up thread, I understand the value of better engineered parts. There is such thing as "gilding the lily" though. Quality for quality's sake is nice, but personally I'm more pragmatic than that. I want performance or longevity improvements for my money. I'ld happily plunk down the cash for an oil pump hand whittled by Leonardo Da Vinci, raised from the the dead, crafted lovingly from a solid block of platinum, but only if there was an actual measurable benefit for it. But if the stock Guzzi pump does the same job, despite being uglier or less refined, then it's staying. I'll spend my money on something else. Like a nice paint job.

I think I covered the benefits of Joes pump adequately.

Ciao

[sp838]

22 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

think I covered the benefits of Joes pump adequately.

Yes, you did, thank you. I was addressing your unsolicited pontification on the topic of Quality.

[GuzziMoto]

As mentioned, the stock oil pump is barely adequate and Joe's pump is better. If barely adequate is good enough for you, roll it. I went with the gears and a pump from Joe as they don't make Guzzi's like that anymore and anything I can do to make it last longer is a good thing. Mine is an older version of the pump, but even it is a higher quality oil pump than the stock unit. More oil pressure and volume, produced more reliably, is a good thing.

It is possible that you will never have an oil pump related failure, but it does happen. Running Joe's pump I believe you dramatically reduce the chances of said oil pump related failure. Nothing in this is 100% certain, but Joe's oil pump is as close as you can be.

[swooshdave]

2 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

As mentioned, the stock oil pump is barely adequate and Joe's pump is better. If barely adequate is good enough for you, roll it. I went with the gears and a pump from Joe as they don't make Guzzi's like that anymore and anything I can do to make it last longer is a good thing. Mine is an older version of the pump, but even it is a higher quality oil pump than the stock unit. More oil pressure and volume, produced more reliably, is a good thing.

It is possible that you will never have an oil pump related failure, but it does happen. Running Joe's pump I believe you dramatically reduce the chances of said oil pump related failure. Nothing in this is 100% certain, but Joe's oil pump is as close as you can be.

Without a doubt, but with all things there's a cost/value question. The question would be what else could I spend the $700+ on as the stock pump probably won't fail. So it comes down to your priorities and funding levels.