V11 sport 03 - starter motor

[docc]

Sounds like time for the Tank Off Maintenance Checklist paying special attention to the bullet connectors for the clutch switch as K_R has said . . .

 

Try holding in the clutch, gearbox in neutral, pressing the starter button and rotating the steering lock-to-lock. If the starter catches up, it's surely the bullet connectors under the left side of the tank beside the head stock.

[Batt57]

Okay Docc. I'll give that a shot.

 

 

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[Kiwi_Roy]

Reading your original again you say no clicking, are you including the faint click under the seat?

Does the fuel pump go through its cycle?

 

Assuming the fuel pump does it's thing you have the start button bullet connectors and the clutch lever switch to satisfy. You can jumper the clutch switch to eliminate that.

There are probably at least 10 different reasons for not cranking, the more feedback you give us the faster it will get sorted

 

 

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[Batt57]

Yup. The fuel pump does its thing. I've tried cycling the clutch lever while thumbing the starter button with no luck. I'm off work tomorrow so I'll re-install the starter and run the test Docc recommended

 

 

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[Kiwi_Roy]

If the fuel pump is cycling the bike is ready to run, it will start with a bump or by hot wiring the starter. Three feet of wire with a spade connector attached to the starter solenoid touched to the battery or hot terminal on the solenoid. (Make sure it's in neutral or you might have to run after it)

 

For some reason Guzzi revised the wiring after they made my 01 so I'm not quite sure how yours will be but I expect it's somewhere between my 01 and the 04
 

If you have the manual that came with the bike, you can trace the power flow (sometimes the manual is not quite reality)

 

There are a couple of different fault paths

The Start relay coil is not picking up

I think you can forget about the start button itself, that gets power from the kill switch, we know that's ok because the pump does its thing. From there it goes to one of the bullet connectors so you should be able to detect power there with key on button pressed, it goes out to the clutch lever, back to the other bullet then to the start relay coil, from the other coil terminal to chassis. just follow it from the first bullet through each point.

 

The Start Relay is picking up but there is no power to pull the solenoid in

If you take the seat off and remove the start relay check for 12 Volts at terminal 30, that's the one by itself on RH side of the bike, hopefully that has power with the key Off otherwise you might have what's commonly known as "Startus Interuptus" (too much resistance - the solenoid pulls 40+ Amps), based on the 04 diagram that would show up as the Neutral light going out when you press start.

A quick check to make sure you have a good power supply is to poke a wire in the relay socket from 30 to 87, the bike should crank (make sure you aren't in gear)

 

Pin Layout

----  30   this pin should have 12 Volts on it (best case with the key off, for sure with the key on)

----  87   this is the wire that goes to the starter solenoid

| | |  85, 87A, 86    I may have 85, 86 backwards but it doesn't matter, one of these two should go +12 when you press the start button, the other should be connected to chassis (battery negative) 87A goes to the headlight relay, it turns the headlight off while cranking.

 

If it doesn't crank from 30 - 87 then go from 87 to the battery positive, that checks the wire from relay to and including the starter solenoid.

 

PM sent

[Batt57]

It's got to be the starter solenoid. I put it back together and it fired right up. Twice.

The third time it clicks once and nothing else. When the starter is pushed there is indeed 12v going to the spade connector at the solenoid. I checked it. There is also 12v going to the main starter connection.

 

 

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[Batt57]

So if there's 12v going to the solenoid it should start right? When the starter button is not pressed the meter shows no voltage at the same point.

 

 

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[docc]

Sounds like all the connections are good. The solenoid can be disassembled and cleaned, as I recall.  Otherwise, it's time to get the starter apart and see if the magnets have come unglued . . .

[Kiwi_Roy]

So if there's 12v going to the solenoid it should start right? When the starter button is not pressed the meter shows no voltage at the same point.

 

 

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Yes, do you hear the solenoid clunk into gear?

 

 

There's one more check you can do. There are two large terminals on the solenoid, one has 12 Volts on it

The other should have 12 Volts when you press start, if that's there and it's not spinning indeed you have a motor problem.

 

Brushes stuck, worn out, magnets off, armature contacting the fields, armature burnt out, did I say motors are simple?

If the motor was jammed I would expect it to pull down the Voltage

 

When you are measuring the various Voltages I hope you have the meter negative lead connected to chassis, not the battery or you could be mislead thinking you have Voltage when you don't due to a bad ground.

[Batt57]

The meter is grounded to one of the bolts that holds the starter in place. And yes, when I press the starter button I hear the loud clunk of the solenoid.

 

 

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[Kiwi_Roy]

Then just measure voltage at the other terminal, if 12V is not there it's the solenoid, if it is it's the motor,

[vuzzi]

I think a lack of current at the sollenoid has a large part in this isssue. I have the same problem. The lack of current I guess is caused by the wiring going though the contact and back. In the inclosed picture the current comes from the battery through the contact, to pin 30 of the relay, through the relay, and then to the sollenoid. If I take the starter out and connect it to an old battery, it runs directly.

 

I therefore always wandered if it would be possible to add an extra relay, which is feed by the original start relay (pin 87), and engages a current coming directly from the battery, going to the starter sollenoid (see second picture). Any gussestions about this? (Roy?)

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes the feed (30) for the start relay should not go through the switch, that's caused an unbelievable amount of grief over the years even today on the modern bikes like Norge, Breva etc it's causing "Startus Interuptus" 

The problem is if you power the start relay direct how do you turn off the headlight relay while cranking?

The simple solution is don't bother, the light only draws 4 Amps.

Another solution is to ground the headlight relay coil via the solenoid, wire to (87) of the start relay. While cranking both ends of the headlight relay coil will be at 12 Volts so it drops out. While not cranking the tiny current the headlight relay coil draws will have no effect on the almost short circuit of the starter solenoid (0.2 Ohms to chassis)

 

You don't need another relay, just a small wiring change.