How to improve turn in?

[Admin Jaap]

The biggest (and most expensive) modification for quicker handling are lighter wheels. After I fitted the OZ wheels, I got a completely different bike!

 

And if you're really adventurous, you can steepen the angle of the fork by cutting and welding the frame and lenghten the swing arm...

[Rhino1]

Yup. Nothing like a set of Magnesium Marchesinis to make a TL1000R turn... Lol. Upgrading wheels is expensive, but awesome --one of the best ways to improve handling and lessen rotating, unsprung mass ..

[Cabernet]

I haven't done it yet, but I have seen mention of ditching the steering damper. This would lighten the apparent effort.

I wouldn't dare do that.

[Cabernet]

Guzzisti

That's interesting. I've just had the rear wheel bearing replaced over winter. It was a cheap part & had fallen to bits. This couldn't have helped?

I would strongly suspect that a review of rebound would not go amiss

Cheers

There was a bad batch of the spacers that fit between the beatings inner race. If you are regularly doing rear bearings, try a new spacer.

[redrider]

Marzocchi forks should be 36 mm above the top yoke. Do not include the height of the damper adjuster. Michelin PRs in 120/70 and 180/55 were stable but not very quick to turn. Avon Storm 2 ultra in the same sizes are a huge improvement.

[GuzziMoto]

 

I haven't done it yet, but I have seen mention of ditching the steering damper. This would lighten the apparent effort.

I wouldn't dare do that.

 

If you don't want to do that then don't do it. But we have done that on the wife's V11 and it is working very well.

There are two main reasons a street bike needs a steering damper.

1) It has very aggressive geometry and is inherently unstable. There are more than a few sport bikes and race bikes that fit this category. The V11 does not fit this category.

2) The suspension is not set up 100% and needs the damper to mask the set up issues. V11's can easily fall into this category.

There is a third reason for a steering damper, but is not really a reason for a street bike to NEED a damper. It is if the rider WANTS a steering damper. Some people prefer the heavier steering feel they impart.

As has been mentioned before, The reason we removed the steering damper from the wife's V11 is because the damper had failed and it was screwing up the handling, making the bike wallow and weave. It was not obvious, but you could just feel there was something wrong with the damper set at its lightest, the bars would resist turning at first and then they would "let go" and turn easier. The slight stickiness would cause serious issues even trying to go straight. We removed it thinking we would replace it, but the bike handled so much more to my wife's liking with it gone. The steering was lighter with more feedback about what the front end was doing. It made the bike a much sharper tool. I am sure some here would not like it that way. And those people should not do so. But if you want sharper, quicker steering from your V11 and you have or are willing to put in the effort to get the suspension set up correctly it is an option.

[Quercus]

Wow. Thanks for the responses. There are so many opinions out there. For the record I have the black frame crinkle motor paint model year. Registered 03 but from what I have learnt an 02 model.

 

I realise preload isn't all the answer or even some of it. At the time I simply increased it to try & get some more weight over the front. I guess what I meant about a reluctance to change direction was the slightly remote feel at the front. Entering a turn it felt almost what car drivers would call under steer?

 

I have never found it overly twitchy. When I say tying itself in knots I mean that say quick left right/right left changes had it shaking it's head a bit.

 

At present I'm on Dunlop road smarts which on the bmw I found turned in rapidly especially compared to similar purpose bridge stones & michelin said.

 

Previously I had an R1100s Beemer & the handling for a bike of similar weight instilled great confidence & responsiveness.

At present I'm on Dunlop road smarts which on the bmw I found turned in rapidly especially compared to similar purpose bridge stones 023s & michelin pr3s.

 

I think I should get some professional help...haha with the suspension. I would imagine that given my weight & occasionally enthusiastic riding upgrading the suspension is going to be a must. It's just too light at the front at the moment.

[thumper]

One overlooked part of the formula for a quicker turn in rider.

Do a few track days on the bike before spending a lot of money chasing things that may be OK.

It is amazing how competent a bike can be as our skill levels increase.

I know it helped me.

[Baldini]

Quercus - you answered yourself: too much rearward wt bias causes vague front end.

Set sag, make sure everything is in spec & if you're gonna ride it like that, get your arse over the front end. Raising the forks in the triple clamps should help too, if that's safely doable on the marzzochi bikes. Headshaking - if it's just a bit & settles down - well....

[GuzziMoto]

Sliding the triples down the fork tubes, i.e., raising the forks in the triples, can be a double edged sword. On the one hand it does steepen the rake and put slightly more weight on the front wheel. On the other hand it reduces trail, which is the main aspect of geometry that makes a motorcycle stable. There is a happy median range of trail. To little is really bad and too much is a little bad. If you already have stability issues you should be careful sliding the fork tubes up through the triple clamps. It may help but it could also increase the instability. You won't know if you don't try but you might not realize it is an issue until it really is an issue.

I am pretty sure your bike has more relaxed rake than the early version V11's. I think it has 26 degrees of rake. Many later V11 owners do the sliding the forks up through the triples thing to get back to or close to where the early red frame V11's are with 25 degrees of rake. But if you do that you can get to or near where the red frame bikes are with rake, but I am pretty sure you won't have the same amount of trail they do. If you have triples made that decrease the offset (or have your triples modified), or if you swap to other forks, like GSXR forks, that have less offset you can have the rake without the decrease in trail. Or you can try a little sliding of the stock forks and see what you think. Personally I am concerned that you have head shake, and think you should first set sag. Setting sag should tell you if your springs are the right rate. Springs that are too soft can't be resolved with more preload. It don't really matter how much preload you add the spring rate does not change unless your springs are progressive rate springs. I don't think Guzzi's came with progressive rate springs. Best way to start any journey is to start at the beginning. Setting sag does not require professional help. It does help to have a friend or two help you. But it can easily be done with the help of a couple of friends. If you get together with two riding buddies you can, as a team, do the sag on all three bikes in a couple of hours. Just take notes and keep track of what you end up with.

[JBBenson]

I guess what I meant about a reluctance to change direction was the slightly remote feel at the front. Entering a turn it felt almost what car drivers would call under steer?

 

I have never found it overly twitchy. When I say tying itself in knots I mean that say quick left right/right left changes had it shaking it's head a bit.

I had this exact problem. a vague, mushy feeling at the front, I couldn't feel what the front wheel was doing. Sometimes I would run wide, sometimes it felt like it was falling into the turn.

 

I had Raceco fork springs and valves installed to match my weight.

 

The improvement made me angry that I wasted so much time sliding forks up and down in the triple trees, adjusting the compression and rebound, screwing around with tire pressures, etc etc.

 

I was angry I hadn't done it earlier. The stock springs and valves are total shit.

[LowRyter]

hey JB, I'd like to know a little more about the Raceco valves and set up.  I had a Race Tek kit installed on my Bandit and it was real help.  Of course my Sport is a much better handler than the Bandit. 

[JBBenson]

I meant Race Tech. In any case, proper fork springs to match my weight in full gear, and new and better valving.

 

Something like these:

 

http://www.guzzitech.com/store/product/full-fork-kit/

 

Todd @ Guzzitech installed them for me. I probably could have done it myself, but I was already sick of working on the bike, and the forks are a little tricky, so I pulled the forks and dropped them off at Todd's place.

 

I think it was around 500.00 all in, parts and labor. 

[GuzziMoto]

I agree with JBBenson, proper suspension is better than messing with sliding forks in the triples. 

Typically straight weight springs are matched to your weight and riding style and progressive rate springs are a  one spring fits all deal. Both are likely better than the stock springs for most riders, but I think the matched straight rate springs are the best choice. The main thing the progressive rate springs have going for them is the one size fits all approach allows the guy selling them to only have to stock one spring set. Straight rate springs are hard to stock as you have to keep a range of springs.

Proper spring rate (setting your sag will tell you if your spring rate is correct or not) and getting the dampening sorted are what makes suspension work right. Once there you can adjust further if you need to. But don't put the horse before the cart.

[LowRyter]

Since I am riding 500 miles to Austin this week, I was wearing in the new Roadsmarts and playing around with the dampener.   I could feel a slight difference with the steering effort, it was set midway and tried it on both ends (full ease and full tension).  I think I'll go full tension when I put the bags on and get on the interstate.  

 

Now after I got back home a buddy sat on the bike.  I was surprised that it squatted more than I expected.  I am guessing it's PIA to get to the preload?  The side panels come off to get to the adjuster?  And on the bottom of the shock I can easily find the clicker.  I didn't have time to experiment with it, I assume clockwise is stiffer?