Help! I cant find my ghost

[blacklist]

Hi all, 

 

First time posting. I've had my 2000 V11 Sport going on a year now but I've come across a problem that has me puzzled. 

 

I've been working on bikes for going on 16 years now, but this is my first Guzzi and I feel like I'm relearning everything from scratch when it comes to this motor. Everything I know of has been done correctly and by the book (spark gap, valve clearance, high end aftermarket products).

 

At the end of the season last year my bike was running great, but was in need of a tune up. Over the last few months it has received new tires, engine oil, trans oil, rear end oil, BMC filter, fuel filter, plugs, battery, and relays (first two toward the engine in the block). 

 

Everything was running great until in the middle of a ride the other day my tach drops to 0 and stays put while I'm rolling down the road. Every once in a while it will jump up the numbers but not in sync with my throttle roll. Then toward the end of the ride it started working correctly. The next day it was incredibly hard to start and ran rough once started, making me put it back in the garage and tack the truck to work. 

 

I knew my valves need to be checked and turns out they were way lose. I reset them to 0.04 and 0.06 clearances and the bike fired right up and ran better than ever. Still not getting anything on the tach though.

 

Went to start it today and it WOULD NOT START, eventually running down my battery. After a charge I got it going and went for a short ride. Great throttle response and power, and a definite improvement over before the valves. Idle sounds good once warm (based on hearing, since the tach is still not working), possibly a little low when cold. 

 

So I'm starting to think my problem is two fold...

1) Whatever electrical is causing my tach to not function properly/make for hard starting.

2) My fuel mixture is probably off because of my tightening of the valves. The previous owner might have had the PC mapped to the VERY loose specs.

 

 

Any advice on what to look into next? I've exhausted all my knowledge and everything seems to check out. I don't want to go back the the loose valve specs and I don't think that's the issue since it was giving me a hard time starting before, and well as the electrical tach problem.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Specs on bike:

2000 V11 Sport

Stock exhaust

BMC Air Filter

Power Commander III usb

[docc]

So, 0.004"/0.006" is mighty tight. There is much happiness to be found at six&eight.

 

If the tach is down, look for other vacancies in the electrical stable: various lights, horn, instrument illumination, "warning" lights?

 

Even new batteries can cast aspersions on our existence . . .

 

With a digital voltmeter check 1)key off; 2) cranking; 3) idle; 4) some rpm, like 2500 or so.

 

(Oh, I can't recall how many times I've read, "Unplug the Power Commander and try again.")

[LowRyter]

When it quit did you check for spark?  I carried an extra plug around with me when my EV would die (BTW- it wasn't the spark, it was the fuel pump.  Specifically it was the corroded fuses- I think.)

 

If you think it might be ignition/electrical related, you might reinforce the ground.  You might also check that the fuses aren't corroded.  Either of those could cause an issue with ignition and the tach.

 

If you have spark, then listen for the fuel pump. 

 

And what Docc said too.  Valves are a might tight but I wouldn't think would be the cause. 

[blacklist]

No other warning lights in the dash except slight battery light flick on startup and under ~1k rpm. I always assumed it wasn't getting charge until over about 1-1.5k rpm like most systems.

 

Is 4 and 6 not the manual specs? I would say that would be my first guess on why it's difficult to start but I was having the problem pre adjustment and it runs great when I can get it started.

 

All my fuses in the block LOOK good, but I will test them to be sure. Unplugged the PC and reconnected with no luck. I might have to set the map back to zero and start from there?

 

I'll double check my spark. Plugs look good and should be new, I can't imagine the would foul in so few miles.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The Tach dropping to zero could be the headlight relay dropping out, if it happens again reach forward and put your hand in front of the headlight

 

 

The hard start

Does the fuel pump prime when you turn the key On, if not I would suspect the side-stand switch or the ignition switch

Try flicking the switch a couple of times

 

To check if it's the side-stand take out the No 3 relay and wind a strand of bare wire around the two fat pins. This bypasses the side stand

(I would be surprised if a 2000 still has a side-stand switch working)

 

Have you replaced the relays at all, most guys replace them all with 5 pin type.

 

The bike will run very rough if there is a high resistance in the safety circuit because the ECU relay drops out rebooting each time.

 

Some TLC items.

Clean and grease the battery terminals with Vaseline

Check the main Ground connection, it should be on a gearbox bolt

Ad an extra ground to the regulator

 

A schematic complements of Carl Allison

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif

 

 

BTW, welcome to the forum, there's only one rule here, we need PICTURES 

[LowRyter]

No other warning lights in the dash except slight battery light flick on startup and under ~1k rpm. I always assumed it wasn't getting charge until over about 1-1.5k rpm like most systems.

 

Is 4 and 6 not the manual specs? I would say that would be my first guess on why it's difficult to start but I was having the problem pre adjustment and it runs great when I can get it started.

 

All my fuses in the block LOOK good, but I will test them to be sure. Unplugged the PC and reconnected with no luck. I might have to set the map back to zero and start from there?

 

I'll double check my spark. Plugs look good and should be new, I can't imagine the would foul in so few miles.

 

No, I didn't mean your plugs were fouling, I meant it's not clear whether you have an ignition problem vs fuel delivery.  I keep an extra plug so I can pull off a lead and stick the plug in.  I can see whether it sparks or not.  Much quicker vs unscrewing the sparkplug.

 

I would still check the ground.

[blacklist]

The Tach dropping to zero could be the headlight relay dropping out, if it happens again reach forward and put your hand in front of the headlight

 

 

The hard start

Does the fuel pump prime when you turn the key On, if not I would suspect the side-stand switch or the ignition switch

Try flicking the switch a couple of times

 

To check if it's the side-stand take out the No 3 relay and wind a strand of bare wire around the two fat pins. This bypasses the side stand

(I would be surprised if a 2000 still has a side-stand switch working)

 

Have you replaced the relays at all, most guys replace them all with 5 pin type.

 

The bike will run very rough if there is a high resistance in the safety circuit because the ECU relay drops out rebooting each time.

 

Some TLC items.

Clean and grease the battery terminals with Vaseline

Check the main Ground connection, it should be on a gearbox bolt

Ad an extra ground to the regulator

 

A schematic complements of Carl Allison

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif

 

 

BTW, welcome to the forum, there's only one rule here, we need PICTURES

Fuel pump primes almost every time. Only doesn't when I'm repeatedly turning the ignition on and off during hard starts.

 

I replaced the first two relays with sealed Motratech relays about 6 weeks ago. I'll look at #3 next.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The pump should prime EVERY time you cycle the key or kill switch when power gets thru the ECU relay it always picks up the ECU Power relay

If the pump fails to prime you are just wasting power cranking (see light below)

 

From the front the relays are Start, Headlight, Side/stand, ECU, ECU Power relay. The important ones for running are the last two

The first one (Start relay) must be a 5 pin type.

 

Wire a small 12 Volt lamp to the petcock fuse (usually F8) Just jamb it in the holder with the fuse and ground the other wire to a bolt or battery negative. This one small lamp will tell you more about the electrics than you ever wanted to know.

 

From your profile you've had a few bikes, a Guzzi is "different"

[Scud]

Is 4 and 6 not the manual specs?

 

Welcome. One thing I've learned from this forum is to trust the manual about 90%.

 

The hard part is figuring out which 90% - but that's what this forum is good for. I have found it useful to follow the recommendations of members here who have put a lot of miles on their bikes and found improvements in performance AND reliability through some non-specified settings, procedures, modifications, or aftermarket parts. Docc recommends the OMRON 5-pin relays for all five positions. Why not just buy a set of 5 ($30) and carry your other new 5-pin relays as backups? That would take "intermittently failing relay" off the potential problems list, get you closer to a solution, and some peace of mind going forward (not wondering when the stock relays will fail).

 

BTW, the  icon sometimes means: I am old as dirt, have learned from many mistakes, and am trying to help you.

[blacklist]

From your profile you've had a few bikes, a Guzzi is "different"

 

The profile bikes are the current stable, I've had several others but like you said the Guzzi is "different". I'm loving the bike, just need to get it back to working so I can enjoy this great weather.

 

 

 

Is 4 and 6 not the manual specs?

 

Welcome. One thing I've learned from this forum is to trust the manual about 90%.

 

The hard part is figuring out which 90% - but that's what this forum is good for. I have found it useful to follow the recommendations of members here who have put a lot of miles on their bikes and found improvements in performance AND reliability through some non-specified settings, procedures, modifications, or aftermarket parts. Docc recommends the OMRON 5-pin relays for all five positions. Why not just buy a set of 5 ($30) and carry your other new 5-pin relays as backups? That would take "intermittently failing relay" off the potential problems list, get you closer to a solution, and some peace of mind going forward (not wondering when the stock relays will fail).

 

BTW, the  icon sometimes means: I am old as dirt, have learned from many mistakes, and am trying to help you.

 

 

Good idea on replacing all the relays, and thanks for the link. There are two item numbers for that relay, which should I order?

 

I'm grateful for the help, what are the benifits of running 6/8? I'm not married to the 4/6, just trying to bring everything back to factory specs so I can figure out my running issue.

[docc]

 

From your profile you've had a few bikes, a Guzzi is "different"

 

The profile bikes are the current stable, I've had several others but like you said the Guzzi is "different". I'm loving the bike, just need to get it back to working so I can enjoy this great weather.

 

 

 

Is 4 and 6 not the manual specs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm grateful for the help, what are the benifits of running 6/8? I'm not married to the 4/6, just trying to bring everything back to factory specs so I can figure out my running issue.

 

Cooler valves, especially the exhaust. I also find idle to be much more stable, particularly in hot weather like were coming into here in the southern US.

[blacklist]

Cooler valves, especially the exhaust. I also find idle to be much more stable, particularly in hot weather like were coming into here in the southern US.

 

Ah, that makes sense. Looks like I'm gonna be loosing them up to 6/8.

[Scud]

 

Good idea on replacing all the relays, and thanks for the link. There are two item numbers for that relay, which should I order?

 

 

I hadn't noticed the two item numbers - looks like one is the manufacturer's number and the other is the retailer's. So they are just two numbers that mean the same thing. Just put 5 in the shopping cart (or more if you want additional spares).

 

Re valve clearances:  I'm also going to set mine to .006"I and .008"E. I've seen enough reports of problems cured by these settings to convince me. Make sure the clearance doesn't change when you tighten the locking nut over the adjusting screw - it's easy to accidentally set the valves too tight if you don't hold the adjuster in place while tightening the locking nut.

 

Black bikes.   

[LowRyter]

I was wrong... 0.10mm (0.004″)Exhaust: 0.15mm (0.006″) is correct valve adjustment set. At least it's what I use on both my Guzzis and what the book seyz.

 

I am still not certain if you have an ignition problem of fuel delivery problem. The fuel pump should cycle every time you turn the key on. And if it's not running, it's pretty easy to pull a sparkplug lead and determine if it's sparking.

 

The first step is to know whether it's spark or fuel.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I didn't mention before the tach not working could also mean you have no charging or idiot lights, they get their power from a red/black wire after the headlight relay which gets it's. Power from the 5 pin Start Relay.

 

Some of the symptoms you mentioned make me wonder if the relays are perhaps dropping out due to low Voltage

after the ignition switch. it is long overdue for cleaning if it hasn't been done.

The wires at the back of the switch can also break if they aren't secured there, the switch comes out in a few seconds, just undo the two Phillips screws underneath and pull the switch block off leaving the lock in place.

Mark the switch before you pull it apart so it goes back in the same position and wipe out the old grease, replace with fresh petroleum jelly aka Vaseline (Never ever use di-electric grease)

 

 

You don't have to be an Electrician to own a Guzzi but it helps!