2008 1200 Sport

[motowfo]

NEVER! EVER! EVER! TOUCH OR ADJUST THE THROTTLE STOP SCREW ON A W5AM CONTROLLED BIKE!

 

The idle speed is hard coded into the ECU and is governed by a stepper motor. The system doesn't use a MAF sensor and if you move that screw you completely @#!#$# the fueling as the throttle angle is set on a flow bench at the factory and if you mess with it it is virtually impossible to get it right again!

 

Also if your mate's bike is a 2009 it will be a flat tappet model and unless he has had it rollerised there is no point in doing anything to it until it has been. How many Km on it now and does it have a service history?

 

Pete

 

PS? If you messed with the throttle stop screw on the Sport that might well explain the high idle. I'll give a full run down on tuning a W5AM bike a bit later, they are ridiculously simple but still after ten or more years in production there are still people, including many shops, getting it wrong!

Bike has just over 35K Miles (US measure)... Throttle stop has NOT been touched (although I think I am or at least cursed)!!!

 

Still flat tappet but did have the recall done early on and it does not exhibit any of the symptoms that some have had...

 

Short list of issues and "fixes"

 

When bike warms to normal operating temp it seems to almost drop 1 cylinder at idle.  When I give it a bit of gas things pick up and the bike runs fine until the next stop sign/stop event (Dr... It only runs bad when I stop... Dr's Reply: Don't Stop)

 

Checked TPS, all good

Checked Valves all good

 

Swapped injectors from cylinder to cylinder - minor change but not enough to pinpoint the issue

Swapped Coils from side to side and wrapped the plug wires with protective wrap - Improvement  The idle, now when warm "hunts and seeks" for 1100-1200 RPM

 

I have a new set of coils and wires that just arrived that is my next attempt at a fix...  I will let you know.

 

This issue "appeared" last summer on a "normally" hot August day while I was riding the bike home from the office (several stop signs in the 35 mile ride)... Prior to that, no issues!!!

 

(Yes, I'm looking into the roller rocker mod but I hate to throw good money after bad...)

 

That's where things stand today.

[pete roper]

At 35, OE even 25,000 miles your tappets will be well worn. They may not of got to the 'Death Rattle' stage yet but they will certainly be on the way out.

 

They aren't likely to be this bad

 

 

But they'll likely be worse than this

 

 

Until you pull a cambox you won't know how bad it is and until it's fixed there is no point in trying to tune the bike. If the tappets are severely worn even if adjusted 'Correctly' high points on them may be causing the valve to be held off its seat when hot which would explain stalling. Changes to cam timing will also play havoc with the fueling due to the lack of a MAF sensor.

 

Other causes of high or low idle problems are often down to people insisting on keeping the oil filled to the 'Max' mark on the dipstick. This results in lots of oil being pumped into the airbox and fouling the TB's and stepper.

 

Really, pulling the LH cambox is a 15 minute task on a Stelvio, (RH requires the tank and plastics off but they'll have to come off anyway for installation of a 'C' Kit for rollers.). When you rollerise is also the ideal time to remove the TB's and stepper for a thorough cleaning. Once that is done it can be tuned properly and most likely all its 'Issues' will go away.

[pete roper]

In case I haven't put it up on this board this is the simple sequence for tuning a W5AM bike, (Except Bellagio.).

 

Set the tappets, change oil and oil and air filters.

 

Connect manometers/Carbtune/Whatever you use.

 

Connect Guzzidiag or your other tool of choice.

 

Close both air bleeds.

 

Start bike and warm to over 60*C

 

Hold rpm at 3500-4000rpm and use the bell crank screw that moves the linkage rod to balance the TB's at high speed.

 

Kill engine and ensure throttle is fully closed by opening it and letting it snap closed.

 

Using Guzzidiag or whatever re-set the TPS value and the self learning parameters.

 

Restart engine and let it idle. Whichever side has the higher manifold depression open the air bleed on that TB until the depression is equal on both TB's

 

Remove manometers and diagnostic tooling. Reinsert manifold plugs or reconnect tubes to charcoal canister.

 

Done!

 

It really is that simple and takes about 15 minutes.

[motowfo]

At 35, OE even 25,000 miles your tappets will be well worn. They may not of got to the 'Death Rattle' stage yet but they will certainly be on the way out.

 

 

Results of Left Side pull...

 

 

Piaggio has agreed to "warranty" the parts!!!

[pete roper]

Good pic that emphasises the development of the delamination. Around the lighter coloured exposed substrate you can see the discolouration of the DLC as it crazes and fragments. Unfortunately many people, even people who should know better, often think that because there isn't substrate exposed the tappets are fine, they aren't usually by 10,000 km you will see that 'Matt' discolouration appearing if you wipe the tappet surface clean and dry. I just went through this, or tried to, with some pommy bloke who turned up on WG and the Ghetto. He pulled a cambox at 4,500 miles and claimed everything was perfect and I obviously didn't know what I was talking about but then he went off in a huff before posting any pics. Pity as his 1200 Sport is a nice bike, it's a shame he's going to ride it to death, or worse, flick pass it to some other sucker while it still has the problem.

 

You can lead a horse to water...........

[Chuck]

 

 

You can lead a horse to water........... 

True enough. He came with a chip on his shoulder thinking his "no damage at 4500 miles, so they all don't fail" would be verified on another forum. When it wasn't, he left in a huff with many FUs. Hey, everybody's different. He's welcome to his ideas. 

[pete roper]

I break wind energetically in his general direction!

[motowfo]

I break wind energetically in his general direction!

Excellent, as Docc can attest I am Brewmeister and Chief Flatulator at my PICO brewery Rancho Loco...

 

Sorry Pete, all ABV's are significantly above Queen's Lands Limits!! If you see Chippy any time soon, tell him I flatulate for him in Middle TN!

[docc]

 

I break wind energetically in his general direction!

Excellent, as Docc can attest I am Brewmeister and Chief Flatulator at my PICO brewery Rancho Loco...

 

Sorry Pete, all ABV's are significantly above Queen's Lands Limits!! If you see Chippy any time soon, tell him I flatulate for him in Middle TN!

 

I can attest to the (superb!) Brewmeister part, but try to dodge the flatulation, especially when it gets exuberant . . .

[docc]

In case I haven't put it up on this board this is the simple sequence for tuning a W5AM bike, (Except Bellagio.).

 

Set the tappets, change oil and oil and air filters.

 

Connect manometers/Carbtune/Whatever you use.

 

Connect Guzzidiag or your other tool of choice.

 

Close both air bleeds.

 

Start bike and warm to over 60*C

 

Hold rpm at 3500-4000rpm and use the bell crank screw that moves the linkage rod to balance the TB's at high speed.

 

Kill engine and ensure throttle is fully closed by opening it and letting it snap closed.

 

Using Guzzidiag or whatever re-set the TPS value and the self learning parameters.

 

Restart engine and let it idle. Whichever side has the higher manifold depression open the air bleed on that TB until the depression is equal on both TB's

 

Remove manometers and diagnostic tooling. Reinsert manifold plugs or reconnect tubes to charcoal canister.

 

Done!

 

It really is that simple and takes about 15 minutes.

Now that motowfo has his Stelvio on its way to resurrection, let's revisit the W5AM tuning.  When the electronically set TPS appeared, I could not understand how it could know the actual throttle angle. Now I understand that the throttle plate angle is pre-set and therefor a known quantity!

 

In the "if I knew then what I know now" category of addressing one's mistakes, I must now attempt to restore the correct throttle plate angles on the W5AM 2007 1200SPORT 2-valver.  Since guzzidiag reads the throttle angle from the look-up table, my understanding is that some other (physical) method must be used to re-establish the optimum throttle plate setting? Or is it worth trying to use the guzzidiag apparent throttle angle to attempt this?

[pete roper]

OK, did you re-set the TPS after fiddling with the 'Sacred Screw'? If not then you can simply look at what the TPS reading currently is and turn the screw back until it reads 4.6 working on the assumption that it was correct in the first place.

 

If you did re-set it? Can you remember what it was sitting at before?

 

Pete

[docc]

Good then, we will hook up guzzidiag an see where the angle sits. I suspect it is more open than 4.6º . We'll then have a look at whether the angle bumps up slightly at idle and consider some form of The Nasty Kludge.

 

I had performed the tune as I would on a 15M. While the bike started and ran much better, the idle was low. This was the point of intervening with a dose of exuberant ignorance by turning in the "idle screw," then resetting the "learning parameters."

 

Of course, I am fond of idling my V11 15M on the high side. Perhaps these W5AM won't tolerate that?

 

edit: I understand, now, that even though the "stop screw" is identical to my V11, it is NOT an "idle stop", it is the baseline Throttle Angle Stop.

[pete roper]

The target idle of 1250+/-50 is hard coded into the ECU and cannot be changed. The ECU monitors the idle speed and uses the stepper to add more air if it detects the engine speed falling or closes cutting air off if it detects the idle speed rising.

 

So did you fiddle with the stop screw or not? I'm not clear on that.....

[docc]

The target idle of 1250+/-50 is hard coded into the ECU and cannot be changed. The ECU monitors the idle speed and uses the stepper to add more air if it detects the engine speed falling or closes cutting air off if it detects the idle speed rising.

 

So did you fiddle with the stop screw or not? I'm not clear on that.....

Oh, dear me . . .   . . . indeed I did, oh-Great-Wizard . . . .   I can only hope that The Keeper of the Sacred Screw has mercy on my tools, or I can at least develop an appetite for what she does to me for my transgression.   

 

And after 17 years of telling people, "You can't just adjust your idle (on a 15M/ V11) just by moving the idle stop screw!"

 

I understand, now, why the W5AM is so different.

[docc]

Wait . .  is The Sacred Screw on the left throttle stop, or the right?