2008 1200 Sport

[Chuck]

 

 no gratifying hiss of steam . . . 

 

I like that one.. 

 

Didn't the Norge have that trouble, too? And aren't they (mechanically and electronically) the same motorcycle?

 

I *think* the front suspension was upgraded from the Norge on the sports, but it was essentially the same bike without the plastic. Strangely enough, it has the same "top heavy" feeling as the Norge, too. 

[docc]

I'm still a bit mystified why Goofman's Sport doesn't always idle where (I thought) it was set. Seems in the hotter weather it would gather itself up to around 2000 rpm at times.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something in the procedure, but couldn't find the right hammer to set it right . . .

[pete roper]

 

Errr? Yes there is.

 

You mean this, Pete?: "Seemed to work very well, yet there is no resounding confirmation that those last two actions do anything."

 

How so? It just seems to turn the dialog box off.  There are no values displayed (that I saw) . . . no bells ring, the sun did not break through the clouds, no gratifying hiss of steam . . .

If the tune has been done properly it will of changed the TPS value. If it isn't re-set it will mean that the ECU will assume that the throttle is in a different position to that that it is. Once the TPS value moves more than 0.2-0.3 degrees above its calibrated position the spark will advance leading to a high idle occurring. This can also be exacerbated by ambient and engine temperature fluctuations.

 

Re-setting the self learning parameters, (Also known as clearing the trims.) restores the learned parameters of the CL map to the factory baseline. This can also be achieved by simply pulling the main 30A fuse for a few seconds.

 

Few bikes have EVER been as easy to tune as a W5AM Guzzi yet after ten years in production I'm still seeing them all #@$&@#@ up tuning wise on a weekly basis. It makes my brain hurt!

[docc]

The last time we went over it was at breakfast meet-up and I pulled the laptop from the Sport's pannier and cabled in to the 1200. Drew a little crowd!

 

I decided to "re-set the learning parameters" last thing after all else was complete, so I'm supposing that is all good. While he reported the bike running much better, idling smoother it did still "hang its idle" a few times after.  It's due an air filter and I am left to wonder if it's on its original since it's a bit of a fuss to get to.

 

Goofman is actually braving the wet roads to ride here today, so I'll ask how it's running these days.

 

Don't feel alone on the achy-brain, Pete!

[pete roper]

The hanging idle is a weird one. While early W5AM bikes had a stepper motor with a metal body and later ones had a plastic stepper there is some evidence, which I can't say is conclusive, that the metal bodied ones are more prone to sticking which can cause high idle problems.

 

One perennial problem with almost all big blocks is that the factory recommends too much engine oil and this is reflected in the dipstick marking. On the CARC bikes with a screw in dipstick, (Bellagio excepted.) you are told to check the oil with the stick unscrewed and simply resting on the threads. If you then fill to the 'Full' mark on the stick all that you will ensure is that a shitload of oil will get expelled through the breather system and into the airbox where it will gum up the throttle butterflies and can easily contaminate the stepper motor.

 

If the stepper jams? High idle is often the result. If the throttle plates get contaminated and the bores of the TB's coated in grunge there is another odd little syndrome that can occur.

 

After the throttle body balancing procedure has been carried out the TPS needs to be re-set. This is an electronic, interpretative adjustment that has to be carried out using Guzzidiag or one of the other available diagnostic tools. Once this is done the TPS value will be re-set to its baseline which will of been altered during the high speed balance procedure due to the TPS being on the right hand TB but the bell crank adjustment being on the left. (This is one of those infuriating things. If they'd put the TPS on the left hand TB it would to all intents and purposes NEVER need attention! GAKK!)

 

Anyway, if the throttle plates are badly contaminated or the bores of the TB's worn or cruddy the TPS reading, (Let's pretend this is an 8V for this example.) will be 4.8 with the engine off, (Which it has to be for the re-setting function to be carried out.). When the engine is tarted though the air pressure working on the back of the butterflies may alter their position slightly causing the TPS reading to rise, sometimes by as much as 0.5 of a degree to around 5.2-5.3. The problem then is that at that TPS value the map is already beginning to advance the spark so once again the idle rises!

 

While the *Real* solution is to remove the throttle bodies for a damned good cleaning and then never run the oil higher than about a third of the way up the stick from the 'Add' mark you can try a nasty little kludge I've discovered which may buy you some time.

 

With the engine off but the ignition on get a thin feeler guage, no more than 2 thou and slip it in between the throttle stop and the 'Never touch' sacred screw it stops against. Check with Guzzidiag that the TPS reading is now about 5.2 degrees and adjust thickness of feeler guage to suit. With the feeler guage in situ now re-set the TPS and remove the feeler guage. As the throttle stop re-seats against the stop screw the value will actually drop to 4.4-4.5 degrees, actually too low BUT when the engine is started the throttle plates get tugged round and the TPS value elevates again, but just to about where it *Should* be at 4.8 so the spark doesn't advance and Ta-Da! No high idle!

 

As I said it's a nasty kludge, but if it works until such time as you can get the TB's off WGAF?

 

Finally, there may on some of the 2V-W5AM bikes be a hard coding error in the temperature correction table that is non adjustable as I've seen a few of them that no matter what you did to them at certain ambient temperatures they will tend to idle high. Neither I or Mark have managed to identify a cause which leads up to believe it must be a non-adjustable hard coding glitch. If that's the case? Well, there's bugger all we can do. But it's worth trying the other alternatives before throwing in the towel.

 

Pete

[docc]

WOW, Pete !     Thanks for the fabulous reply.

 

It's not just anyone who will surrender their nasty kludges!

 

Curiously, Goofman and I had this conversation about the oil check procedure being *apparently* different. The English translation in the V11 manual says to "screw it (the dipstick) up."

 

Since I've been doing this (screwing things up) all my life (mechanically and otherwise ), this just seems natural to me . . .

[docc]

We're here in Goofman's (chilly) garage pondering his 1200 Sport. He has cleaned the Throttle Bodies, changed the (really dirty) air filter, cleaned and gapped the secondary spark plugs, adjusted the oil level, and replaced an intake tube (from airbox to throttle body).

 

So, now to rebalance the throttle bodies and "reset" the TPS.

 

Question is, can the throttle plate be "budged" to the idle opening using  the throttle cable, itself, to replicate the kludge and set the TPS?

 

edit: To clarify, I was thinking we would do the above (balance the Throttle bodies/ set the idle/ "reset" the TPS at operating temperature then shut off and record the TPS "degrees opening;" Start up and record the "degrees opening" at idle (if different/higher); Shut off, hold the the throttle so slightly open to indicate the "idle value/ degrees opening" and prompt the ECU to *learn* that TPS baseline value.

 

More of a *nudge* or a *budge* than a "kludge," but, wouldn't it work just as well? And less . . . 

[pete roper]

Well you could, but the tiny nature of the change means it's easier to do with a feeler gauge than by trying to hold the throttle. That's all.

 

Really though if the TB's and stepper are clean and operating correctly it should be fine as long as nobody has arsed about with the throttle stop screws.

 

You know the procedure for balancing the TB's on a W5AM bike?

 

Pete

[docc]

On 2/28/2017 at 9:48 PM, pete roper said:

Well you could, but the tiny nature of the change means it's easier to do with a feeler gauge than by trying to hold the throttle. That's all.

 

Really though if the TB's and stepper are clean and operating correctly it should be fine as long as nobody has arsed about with the throttle stop screws.

 

You know the procedure for balancing the TB's on a W5AM bike?

 

Pete

I would not know that balancing the throttle bodies might be any different on W5AM except that the learning parameters might-should be reset after all is done?

 

The guilty hairy-knuckled ape trying to tune this good chap's Guzzi with nary a clue? That'd be me.    According to Goofman, it starts, runs, and accelerates better than before, but there is something just not right. And that's all on me at this point.

 

Next up is another friend's fussy Stevio that just will not behave or respond to common troubleshooting (but, that's another matter!) For now, Pete, thanks a million for the insights and expertise.

[pete roper]

Because the TPS reading is interpretive and the TPS is on the right hand TB's while the adjustment for the bell crank is on the left when you do the high speed balance it alters the TPS value. Therefore after the high speed balance you need to kill the motor and re-set the TPS otherwise it will have weird effects on the running, most usually a high idle issue due to the ECU advancing the spark.

 

Pete

 

PS? What year is this shitbox Stelvio and what is it doing?

[LowRyter]

You might want to check with the Wild Guzzi forum, although no one is more knowledgeable than Pete.  

[docc]

Because the TPS reading is interpretive and the TPS is on the right hand TB's while the adjustment for the bell crank is on the left when you do the high speed balance it alters the TPS value. Therefore after the high speed balance you need to kill the motor and re-set the TPS otherwise it will have weird effects on the running, most usually a high idle issue due to the ECU advancing the spark.

 

Pete

 

PS? What year is this shitbox Stelvio and what is it doing?

That makes perfect sense. I *theorized* that all settings would have to be final before the TPS re-set. Yet, one of those "settings" is (classically) setting the final idle with the stop screw. No good?

 

That Stelvio  . .  I think it's a 2009 quatro valvole. He's had a fit with it. Let me check in with him and see if he's ready to launch a *Desperation Thread* . . . Apparently, it has not had the "learning parameters set, and (simple me), I was hoping that might work some magic on it.

[pete roper]

NEVER! EVER! EVER! TOUCH OR ADJUST THE THROTTLE STOP SCREW ON A W5AM CONTROLLED BIKE!

 

The idle speed is hard coded into the ECU and is governed by a stepper motor. The system doesn't use a MAF sensor and if you move that screw you completely @#!#$# the fueling as the throttle angle is set on a flow bench at the factory and if you mess with it it is virtually impossible to get it right again!

 

Also if your mate's bike is a 2009 it will be a flat tappet model and unless he has had it rollerised there is no point in doing anything to it until it has been. How many Km on it now and does it have a service history?

 

Pete

 

PS? If you messed with the throttle stop screw on the Sport that might well explain the high idle. I'll give a full run down on tuning a W5AM bike a bit later, they are ridiculously simple but still after ten or more years in production there are still people, including many shops, getting it wrong!

[docc]

Flow bench!?!

 

It's a wonder my fettling made any good difference at all!

[Chuck]

If you touched the "sacred screw," may the goddess have mercy on your soul..