LoSide Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Hello all! I am seeing something curious with my '01 V11 Sport (IAW 15M ECU) and I doubt I am the first one to see it. Maybe someone here can shed some light on my issue. Quick rundown: I was experiencing the all too common hiccups in the machine between 2K and 3K RPM. I have already set valve lash, reset the TPS zero voltage and balance the throttle bodies. Things are MUCH better now but there is room for improvement and I want to adjust the CO trim next as the bike appears to be just a touch lean at low engine speeds. My fundamental issue is that I cannot adjust my CO trim with GuzziDiag. I either can't meet the 60 degree minimum engine temperature (more on that below) per GuzziDiag or I get a message that states "the active diagnostics module could not be started" (that quote is from memory so is not likely 100% accurate). Regarding my engine temperature: My engine temperature indication via GuzziDiag is different when the engine is running versus when it is not running. For example, if I am indicating 100 degrees C with the engine running, when I shut the engine down (as required to adjust the CO trim in Guzzi Diag) the temp indication goes to 40 degrees C. If I let it warm to 125 degrees C running, the non-running indication drops to 52. This creates a condition where I cannot simultaneously meet the minimum engine temp of 60 degrees AND have the engine not running. I think this may be the root of my trouble but I am currently out of ideas to resolve it. - I have purchased another engine oil temp sensor thinking it may be a faulty sensor with no change in behavior - I read Meinolf's comment about the sensor and I am using thermal paste in the base of my plastic sensor receiver to correct any contact issues I may have although it is pretty unlikely that would explain a different running vs non-running indication With the above temperature indication "issue" in mind, the furthest along I can get is to run the engine to get it above 60 degrees then select CO trim while running. GuzziDiag then tells me to turn the engine off which results in disconnecting communications with the ECU. After disconnecting and reconnecting communications I hit "Start" in the CO trim window and I then get the dialog "the active diagnostics module could not be started". I suspect it is because on reconnecting with the ECU GuzziDiag recognizes my engine temperature is now too low. I can't be completely sure of this though. I guess my first main question to the group is: does your engine temperature indicate differently when running versus non-running? If the answer is "no" then I may be correct about my feeling that this is my problem to solve. If you say "yes" then I need to head in another direction to correct this! Any feedback, thoughts or ideas are appreciated! Jim
docc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Jim, is the engine temp only different at operating temperature, or do you see a difference in the cold reading as well? FWIW, mine reads the same running and not on start up (not at operating temp). [ ~24˚C ]
docc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Jim, Do you have a link to Meinolf's post about the temperature sensor?
moto fugazzi Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Am I understanding this correctly? You're engine temp will read 125C while running, and change to 52 non-running? Does that happen immediately after turning off the bike, then turning the ignition back on? As far as changing CO, connect to Guzzidiag with only the ignition on when you get the the CO adjustment. GD will prompt you to start the engine when it's needed. Ken
LoSide Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 docc, I went and took a look at just what you mentioned. With the bike "stone cold" from an overnight sit...my oil temp indicated 10degC. For reference, Air temp showed 23degC which is much more reasonable for my 25degC garage temp. As soon as I begin to crank the engine, the oil temp jumps to 37degC. When it catches and runs, it remains at remains at 37. When I kill the engine (and re-establish comms) the oil temp returns to 11degC. I think this was a good suggestion as it really looks as though I have some issues in my harness. Especially given your machine is consistent between operating conditions moto fugazzi, you understanding is spot-on correct. You can imagine my dilemma then because I cannot cross 60degC at any time when the engine is not running. Meinolf's comment is under Technical topics at post 142 in the topic"V11 Ecu diagnostics and reprogramming". Sorry...not clever enough to make a link to it...
docc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 Since (I understand) you changed the sensor already, there must be some connection issue that is not allowing the ECU (and guzzidiag) to see the correct engine temperature. The technical interpretation of "stone cold?" The engine temperature sensor and air temperature sensor read the same. Otherwise, YSMV (Your Stone Might Vary) Meinolf's first post regarding temperatures (Post# 138): http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17865&p=204809 And Post# 142: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17865&p=205220 I'll be having a close look since I am (finally!) using guzzidiag and have had extensive experience with the Engine Temperature Sensor.
LoSide Posted July 19, 2015 Author Posted July 19, 2015 Agreed. When the sensors don't match...that is a big red flag usually. Funny doesn't match no matter the operating condition. Later this evening I will revisit this. (I have a shower to grout with my better half soon...) I also have a spare wiring harness so I will be able to compare resistances between the sensor and ECU pin. I may have a wire that is hanging on to its last thread and the difference between battery voltage (12-ish) and the generator output voltage (14-ish) is causing a very skewed sensor output voltage to be seen at the ECU. I will report next results for those interested!
docc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I remember Mienolf saying that a voltage drop will affect guzzidiag (I paraphrase deeply . . .) It occurs to me to suggest the (simple) "Wiggle Test" - get the engine temp reading live and begin to "wiggle", and stress, and shove about on various points in the harness and connections looking for a place that changes the reading.
LoSide Posted July 20, 2015 Author Posted July 20, 2015 Good news! The bike is running great now! The "fix" still perplexes me though. I am happy to be motoring smoothy again but, now I need to understand why. My wiring was just fine. It "Ohm'ed out" just as the spare harness did. The engine sensor goes directly to the ECU so it was a simple check. This led me to check something that is RARELY the problem...the ECU itself. Fortunately I have a spare I picked up years ago on eBay. Swap the ECU and the engine temp sensor reads just the same as the air temperature when the bike is cold. Winner! It also does NOT change readings whether the bike is running or not. Fires up easier than it has in a long time too. So...it would appear the ECU was the problem. I'm not 100% sure if the ECU is broken though. The ECU I purchased years ago was claimed for the same year and specific model as my bike (or so I and the seller believed). I have interchanged them in the past with little discernible difference and unlike my normal ways, I lost track of which ECU was original to my machine and which I bought from eBay. (long story that isn't entertaining enough that you would want to hear it) So, it may be that today I finally returned the proper ECU to the bike making all well. OR..I have experienced my first ECU failure ever. I understand there are lambda-ECU's and non-lambda ECU's. Maybe this is the difference? My Guzzi does not have any feedback devices in the exhaust so it is certainly a non-lambda machine. When looking at the ECU Information in GuzziDiag, both ECU's list: IAW 15M PF3C 61600.537.01 The set of numbers just below those identifiers are different though "good" ECU = 3D02VS9F "bad" ECU = DLXV11-S Do these mean anything to the ECU model savvy folks out there? Cheers!
Meinolf Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Hi Jim, When looking at the ECU Information in GuzziDiag, both ECU's list: IAW 15M PF3C 61600.537.01 The set of numbers just below those identifiers are different though "good" ECU = 3D02VS9F "bad" ECU = DLXV11-S what you are seeing is data which is part of the BIN loaded to the ECU and can be changed with TunerPro or the like. 3D02VS9f is the code for the first V11-BIN from MG. I haven't seen the DLXV11-S in connection with a 15M or 15RC, but don't claim to know all codes. Don't you have any labels on the ECUs which give more information? If not, check the # of lines of the connector. The 15RC has one additional line for the lambda sensor. As the models which came with the 15RC are using the same temperature sensors, this alone would not explain the issue you experienced and solved. Cheers Meinolf
LoSide Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 Thanks for the info Meinolf! Now that I know those are just "identifiers" in the BIN...I will disregard their significance. Here are pictures of the respective ECU's and their external markings. In addition, both ECU's have the same 36 pins so...one is certainly not a lambda ECU as I wondered. My original ECU did need to be sent to the TechnoResearch many years ago (VDSTS and RaceLink while they served us Guzzi riders). My battery went flat while the software was trying to talk to the ECU and things went dead after that. Perhaps the DLXV11-S is the BIN file they used?? In any case, I have pulled the data from the ECU that makes my machine run good and I will be comparing the data from the ECU that did not function. I doubt I will uncover anything but I am compelled to try nonetheless!
LoSide Posted July 22, 2015 Author Posted July 22, 2015 Sorry...it looks as though those pictures were a bad choice of resolution. Let me try again
docc Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 How so very interesting. Is there any "table" of factory map codes? I have the "original" V11 map that Meinolf references (3D02VS9F). I'll be more observant when I scan my "guest" Rosso Corsa of 2003.
Camn Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 I have pulled the data from the ECU that makes my machine run goodIf you flash this *.bin file ("write" with the IAW15x -writer) to the ecu which is not working, you should have after that two identical 15M ecus .
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