&*(%&* oil filter!

[Guest IanJ]

I am switching my 2002 Le Mans to full synth oil, so I needed to change the filter. After a few days of running around looking for tools, I finally had everything assembed. I had my 27mm bolt. I had my Guzzi filter cap wrench. I had my new Wix filter.

 

So, with a moderate amount of fuss, I finally get the filter cover off. I see the nice white oil filter sitting in there, and think to myself, "woo, good job getting that filter wrench, that'll make this easy!" I fit the filter wrench and turn, but it just spins on the filter. So, I throw a rag in the wrench, to size it down a tiny bit. Nothing, I'm just polishing paint off the filter cannister.

 

I recall discussion I've seen of punching a screwdriver through the filter can if nothing else works. I try this, and after much sweat and grunting, get it to start turning. It probably took 20 minutes from my first tenative hole poke to finally getting the filter to turn. Whoever tightened that filter on used his superhuman spider strength to do it, and I eventually had to resort to a massive screwdriver and a large mallet to get it to turn.

 

Anyway, I finally get the filter off, just managing not to cut myself on the rent metal of the can. I look up into the sump, and it looks ok, but I grab a flashlight and peek in again, just in case.

 

HOLY SHIT!

 

Pardon the profanity, but that's nothing compared to what was coming out of my mouth at the time. Apparently, some clever monkey at MG decided to run a copper tube of some variety along the floor of the sump, probably for the oil cooler. In doing my Vlad the Impaler impersonation, I had managed to dent and scrape the hell out of that tube, and it's unclear whether I punctured it.

 

So, my question is, what have I done? Can that tube be removed and replaced individually, or is it so thoroughly built in that I get to replace the entire pan? I need to pull the sump in any case, obviously, and I'll get some of my answers then, but I'd like to hear what you all have to say on the matter. I'll be talking to Moto International tomorrow, to see what they have to say.

 

Thanks for any input any of you have.

[Guest IanJ]

I finally found that tube in the service manual. Looks like it's attached to the oil pressure regulation system, and is not actually attached to the sump at all. I decided against dropping the pan this evening, following the rule, "don't wrench if you're mad at the bike." That's what got me here to start with. Did I mention the superhuman strength Luigi must have used at the factory to get this filter screwed on?

[al_roethlisberger]

Hey Ian,

 

...well unfortunately I can't tell you if you've knackered anything up significantly.

 

But I can offer this bit of comfort... rest assured that it's all fixable

 

I'm sure someone will have something more specific and constructive, but I thought I'd provide that little bit of silver lining

 

Let us know how it turns out!

 

al

[gthyni]

I would drop the pan,

it is not hard and usually you can reuse the gasket.

Get a spare gasket anyway and save it for next time if not needed.

 

You get the benefit of being able to clean out the sump and mesh filter

wich can't hurt.

[al_roethlisberger]

...yeah, what he said

 

al

[callison]

Watch out for the gasket. After four years, it will get brittle. In other words, you'll have to change it someday, but they are definitely re-usable for quite a long time.

[pete roper]

ARRRRGH!!!! Please! Don't make me say it again!

 

OK, I'll leave alone the subject of whether synthetics are better than boring, stone age, oils and whether a boring, stone age engine needs anything better but I will say, categorically, that if you swap from a Non Synth to a full synth after any period of time using one or the other you greatly increaee your chance of leaks. I'm not saying anything more.

 

On the subject of the filter? Surely you had it changed, and the sump dropped as part of the first service? This should exclude Guiseppe the Wog, who is guilty of lots of crap with Guzzis, from the equation.

 

The fact is even the service book sez that the sump should be dropped for the forst filter change to *examine* the screen. While the one or two *Broad Sump* odels I've done this to have been OK tales are leigion of swarf and crud in the sump, especially since Aprilia waved their magic wand over Mandello.

 

As Al sez, don't worry, it's fixable, probably a lot cheaper than *factory* if you use a bit of common sense. But Don't risk fart arseing about and not doing the job properly.

 

When installing filters the gasket should be oiled and the filter put on *hand tight* no more. If you put it on dry and tighten it up till you fart you've got no-one to blame but yourself if the bastard won't come off next time!

 

Having grown up with earlier bikes where you had to remove the sump to get at the filter, (Which I never found a big chore.) and the docuented occurence of oil starvation caused by the new pick-up system. I find this new fangled whining about filters silly! Good God man! Grow up and take your sump off like true 'Leather-clad God of Speed' rather than whining about your leaky tube!!!!! Are you mouse? Or Moto Guzzi rider!!!!!

 

Pete

[Guest John Y]

Am I a mouse, or God-Of-Speed?

During warranty period: Squeak

After warranty expires: ROOOOAAAAARRRRRR!!

[Guest John T]

but I will say, categorically, that if you swap from a Non Synth to a full synth after any period of time using one or the other you greatly increaee your chance of leaks. I'm not saying anything more.

 

Please don't Pete!

 

Geez, I wish the old wife and her tales would die already!!!

 

Leaks and synthetics: This old tale started WAY back when synthetics did not have seal swellers in the formulation. After awhile the seals would shrink and cause leaks.

 

Today, all synthetics have the seal swellers and do not cause seals to shrink.

The only problem is that modern synthetics clean your engine much better than dead dino oil. After awhile, all the crap is cleaned away from the seals and small leaks can appear.

 

If synthetic leaks, you have a leak! Fix it!

 

I had three new Guzzis running synthetic from day one. They even say that synthetic is in the sump from the factory and all new bikes are recommended to run synthetic.

 

No leaks. Even my freshly rebuilt sport engine is completely leak free.(Completely.)

 

Modern "stone age" Guzzi engines put out maybe two to three times the HP of the old round heads and run much harder. Synthetics benefit these old dogs that are run hard. Even old Guzziology concedes that synthetics are the best oil to run.

 

Back on topic: My dealer drops the pans on all sport motors after seeing the "manhole cover" get cross threaded and ruin the whole oil pan. Must get a new one at big bucks.

 

Drop the pan, clean out the crap, have a look at the insides, change the gasket, (they don't cost much, sheesh) Button it back up and enjoy! Life shouldn't be this hard, it's just an oil change! (required smile thingies)

[bento]

before you do that again, and if your dropping the pan anyway, try this maybe...

 

 

oil filter

[Guest IanJ]

Well, thanks for the support. I would like to say, the purpose of this thread isn't to whine, so you can just drop that one right now.

 

I will be dropping the pan, and recognized immediately after shining in that flashlight that doing so would be necessary, and that I should have done it in the first place. I'll probably be doing that tonight and tomorrow, and hopefully I can get it all back together by the end of Saturday.

 

My hope was that someone could confirm that the tube I mangled is indeed an easily-replaced item, although at a guess, most people have never given it a second thought.

 

I'd rather not discuss the merits of synth vs. dino oil, that's already been done to death.

 

I actually spoke to the person who did my "600 mile service," (Micha at Moto International) and he seemed to think that they didn't change the oil filter (which I found extremely odd, and I'm going to ask him the question again when I talk to them today). Incredible though I find this, it suggests that I can't necessarily blame them for the herculean strength applied to the filter. You can rest assured that the new filter won't be going on any tighter than hand tight with a lubed seal.

 

I'll report back with what I find out about that tube, how much it costs, how hard it is to install, etc.

[Guest IanJ]

Bento, that Outsider mod looks cool. Have you (or anyone else) tried that? Any happy or sad tales to relate?

[bento]

i've no idea. i have seen some of the older guys on the other forum mention that they missed the external oil filters. so i did a bit of hunting and tadaah. i will say it looks like it might hang down off the block a little bit. i dunno if i'm comfortable giving up a half inch of clearance, and the fact that if you do bang it, your gonna fubar your bike real quick.

[jrt]

I've lusted after one of those outsider filters forever, but I'm to damn cheap to buy one. I'm not like Pete. I don't like to drop the pan- I find it a pan in the ass. That's just me. Cheap. So I still drop the pan. So anyway.. in 20 years of riding MG, I've never heard of an outsider oil fiter getting punctured. I think they have a little plate to protect then now in any event.

 

Ian, I don't know this for a fact, cause I don't have my bike in front of me, but in the manual, it looks like you can drop that tube out pretty easily. If parts are not available, then take it to a plumber and ask them to solder a new one (proper diameter of course) into place. Piece of cake. Heck, maybe you could take this opportunity to move the oil pickup to a more reasonable location.

 

Cheers,

Jason

[pete roper]

but I will say, categorically, that if you swap from a Non Synth to  a full synth after any period of time using one or the other you greatly increaee your chance of leaks. I'm not saying anything more.

 

Please don't Pete!

 

Geez, I wish the old wife and her tales would die already!!!

 

Leaks and synthetics: This old tale started WAY back when synthetics did not have seal swellers in the formulation. After awhile the seals would shrink and cause leaks.

 

Today, all synthetics have the seal swellers and do not cause seals to shrink.

The only problem is that modern synthetics clean your engine much better than dead dino oil. After awhile, all the crap is cleaned away from the seals and small leaks can appear.

 

If synthetic leaks, you have a leak! Fix it!

 

I had three new Guzzis running synthetic from day one. They even say that synthetic is in the sump from the factory and all new bikes are recommended to run synthetic.

 

No leaks. Even my freshly rebuilt sport engine is completely leak free.(Completely.)

 

Modern "stone age" Guzzi engines put out maybe two to three times the HP of the old round heads and run much harder. Synthetics benefit these old dogs that are run hard. Even old Guzziology concedes that synthetics are the best oil to run.

 

Back on topic: My dealer drops the pans on all sport motors after seeing the "manhole cover" get cross threaded and ruin the whole oil pan. Must get a new one at big bucks.

 

Drop the pan, clean out the crap, have a look at the insides, change the gasket, (they don't cost much, sheesh) Button it back up and enjoy! Life shouldn't be this hard, it's just an oil change! (required smile thingies)

John wrote;

 

*I had three new Guzzis running synthetic from day one. They even say that synthetic is in the sump from the factory and all new bikes are recommended to run synthetic.*

 

Re-read my post John. I didn't say that using synthetics would cause leaks. Simply changing from a mineral to a synthetic after a period of time greatly increases the risk of leaks. I'm not just talking seals here, I've had 1100 Sports, ('Modern' enough?) that have started leaking like sieves after their owners have changed over.

 

No, I don't want to start a bloody oil thread either. But neither do I want people to SWAP from one type of lubricant to another without being aware that there can be problems. Run with it from day 1 and the problems don't seem to occur. Why? FIIK????

 

Pete