Knee down on a V11

[Cabernet]

Right my learned friends.

This is more about curiosity than an actual intent to change, as I am probably too old to re-learn this.

Does the V11 lend itself to knee down antics or is it just my style is way off?

As you can see below from Tuesday, I shift my low side butt cheek off, but also twist round the tank and actually kneel on the low side rocker box cover to shift my body mass forward without putting load through the bars.

 

 

[Scud]

Based on the pictures, you should be teaching me - I've never done a track day, nor have I leaned my bike that far over. But I do like to work on my technique and try to improve on the street. My personal philosophy is that you're never to old to learn, nor too old to change.

 

I am currently reading Total Control, 2nd Edition, by Lee Parks. I've been trying some of the suggestions in there and it seems to be helping me. There was an especially useful reminder about low-speed technique; I can do U-turns tighter and faster now.

 

Anyway - the book shows pictures of knee-down antics on all sorts of bikes - even overloaded tour-barges. The body positions of the riders in the book are different than your photos. Maybe a book like that would be a good resource for you too.

[PDoz]

My suspicion is we adjust our technique for the quirks of our bike / body. You look to have a sore back? Try raising the bars a bit so you can relax your elbows?

 

But don't listen to me - I don't start hanging off until the pipe is scraping ( too many years of dirt riding and using my feet to steer) , and this modern technique of dropping the inside elbow - what's that about? My elbows stick up and out like a little kid pretending to race his pw50....

[JBBenson]

Mike Hailwood never put his knee down.

 

By not putting my knee down, I like to think I am like Mike Hailwood. 

 

Ha.

[luhbo]

You have your front rather low. So next time you might consider to remove the sidestand before you lean over to the max. To get your knee down without silly contorsions you have to shorten the tank 5cm and raise seat and pegs also 5cm, means take a different bike.

 

Hubert

 

PS: I'm also a big fan of Mike Hailwood

[Cabernet]

So I am hearing that V11 does not lend itself to those antics. I have previously swapped with a workmate with an R1 who is not unaccustomed to knees down. He said it crossed his mind but didn't feel the V11 invited it.

[PDoz]

I'd love to have seen the look on your mates face when he stepped off the guzzi! My mate was riding his wifes r1 , we swapped and he simply couldn't get his head around the guzzis quirks. Meanwhile, I couldn't understand why he bothered with the r1 - it was like taking a scalpel to McDonalds .

 

Enjoy the guzzi for what it is - the day you're grinding the pipes on every corner AND sliding both tyres is when you need to experiment with knee sliders......

[GuzziMoto]

A couple of things stand out.

First, putting a knee down means little unless you are pushing the edge and even then it is often over used.

Second, you really aren't that far from doing it but you would need to stick your knee out (which involves being flexible in that respect) and lean the bike over a little farther.

Third, your riding position reminds me of Kevin Schwantz back in the day. He would shift his lower half pretty far off the bike to achieve higher corner speeds but keep his upper body more centered on the bike which seemed to aid him in controlling things when it started to go wrong. I think it came from his background in trials. Body positioning tends to change with the times. The current trend is to get your entire body as far off the inside as possible and newer bikes work well with that style in so many ways. But when the V11 was made that was not the trend, and as a Guzzi it was even a little behind the current trend of the day. While I am sure you could ride a V11 much like you can any other modern sportbike I think your best results would be to ride it the way it was meant to be ridden.

A good example of this is my two Ducati racebikes. One is a '90's Ducati 750 with a stock frame. The other is from the same era but it is a full custom built bike with an aluminum Harris chassis. The stock chassis bike rides like so many other Ducatis of the day, don't try to brake and turn at the same time. You have to be smooth with it, do all your braking in a straight line, arc the bike into the corner trying to maintain momentum, and power out. It likes a style more like Hailwood and less like Marquez. It rewards smoothness and momentum. If you ride it the way it wants to be ridden it is fast. The Harris bike is totally different. You can brake and turn at the same time, it can change lines at the drop of a hat, and it will do whatever you tell it to the moment you tell it to. It goes as fast as you tell it to, but it does not try to make you ride it any certain way.

The V11 is more like the old '90's Ducati.

[czakky]

That is interesting, I've always wondered why I seem to ride certain bikes one way and have more pucker effect when riding other bikes the same way....

 

Enough about technique what's this Harris Ducati all about? Can I borrow it?

 

JK

[GuzziMoto]

Well, you can't borrow it. She and her sister are pretty much art on display nowadays, sitting in my living room.

This is the Harris Ducati.

She has sister I will try to post as well.

Each one has an AHRMA BOTT title to her name, as well as success in other series and races.

They were at the top of the twins class back in the early to mid '90's. We built the Harris bike in '94 while racing the stock framed bike.

The stock framed bike, Bridgette, won the AHRMA BOTT F2 (is that enough letters?) title in '94. The Harris framed bike, Guinevere, won the AHRMA BOTT F2 title in '95.

[czakky]

Wow! Pretty gnarly! I'm sure there are some really nice parts I can't recognize but it puts a smile on my face either way!

Were you the pilot of these beasts?

 

Sorry to thread jack Cabernet...

[Cabernet]

Sorry to thread jack Cabernet...

Nye bother

A couple of things stand out.

First, putting a knee down means little unless you are pushing the edge and even then it is often over used.

Second, you really aren't that far from doing it but you would need to stick your knee out (which involves being flexible in that respect) and lean the bike over a little farther.

Third, your riding position reminds me of Kevin Schwantz back in the day. He would shift his lower half pretty far off the bike to achieve higher corner speeds but keep his upper body more centered on the bike which seemed to aid him in controlling things when it started to go wrong. I think it came from his background in trials. Body positioning tends to change with the times. The current trend is to get your entire body as far off the inside as possible and newer bikes work well with that style in so many ways. But when the V11 was made that was not the trend, and as a Guzzi it was even a little behind the current trend of the day. While I am sure you could ride a V11 much like you can any other modern sportbike I think your best results would be to ride it the way it was meant to be ridden.

A good example of this is my two Ducati racebikes. One is a '90's Ducati 750 with a stock frame. The other is from the same era but it is a full custom built bike with an aluminum Harris chassis. The stock chassis bike rides like so many other Ducatis of the day, don't try to brake and turn at the same time. You have to be smooth with it, do all your braking in a straight line, arc the bike into the corner trying to maintain momentum, and power out. It likes a style more like Hailwood and less like Marquez. It rewards smoothness and momentum. If you ride it the way it wants to be ridden it is fast. The Harris bike is totally different. You can brake and turn at the same time, it can change lines at the drop of a hat, and it will do whatever you tell it to the moment you tell it to. It goes as fast as you tell it to, but it does not try to make you ride it any certain way.

The V11 is more like the old '90's Ducati.

Well that's informative and encouraging.

The V11 is the most prone bike I have owned. Kawa GT750, BMWR850R, VX800, Deauville & Breva750 are more my normal mounts. Many miles as a courier, head up and getting a good view is my comfort zone, so the Kevin Schwantz comment kinda rings true.

Agree with the braking straight and cornering smooth too, although the V11 will suffer a little trail brake better than my aforementioned mounts.

To me the body shifting allows the bike to partially pass by me when bumped, while I float alongside it, letting it sort itself out first.

I am almost secondarily sprung

Does this ring true?

 

Still getting the message, that the V11 does not lend to knee down, so am not "inclined" to try.

[GuzziMoto]

Yes, your partially sprung theory makes total sense to me.

Even when racers are fully hanging off, their body weight is mostly feed into the bike through the pegs allowing their upper body to float just above the seat. This allows for the bike to move around underneath you. It also lowers the center of gravity and it allows you to shift weight between the inside and outside foot pegs to maintain control and balance.

[Lucky Phil]

You are way to upright on the bike and not actually off the side far enough or have your knee out far enough to get it down.

You can get your knee down on any bike really and the guzzi is no exception, just check a modern racers position on the bike and you will see just how old school your style is.

My style on the track is still very old school with fairly upright position and inside shoulder turned into the corner just like a dirt track racer. I learned to ride dirt and my style is very much the " prepaired to catch the slide and wrestle it" type but my knee is always on the deck.

Once you get it down and become used to it not having it down seem unnatural.

Modern GP racers have such incredible feel for what the tires are doing and the amount of grip they have that they can hang way off the bike and rely on their ability to keep things under control and not be waiting to catch and wrestle the bike. Traction control helps as well.

The more you hang off the bike the less lean angle you need for a given speed and corner radias as well.

So start hanging off with your knee out, the first time it touches down you will probably panic a little but when you get accustomed to it not having it down will feel strange.

Ciao

[Walterg]

Like some of you said. Stick your knee out further and shift your body to the side like a friend of mine is doing here on his California. The bike is hardly under an angle but he's having loads of fun !