Synthetic Oil

[p6x]

More food for thoughts from the Elf lubricant page (Elf provides lubricants in MotoGP)

Quote

Probably the most important property of oil lubricant is the absolute viscosity, which is a measure of the force required to move one layer of the oil film over the other. If the viscosity is too low, a protecting oil film is not formed between the parts. With high viscosity too much power is required to shear the oil film, and the flow of oil through the engine is retarded. Viscosity tends to decrease as temperature increases. Viscosity index (VI) is a number that indicates the resistance of an oil to changes in viscosity with temperature. The smaller the change in viscosity with temperature, the higher the viscosity index of the oil.

 

[Lucky Phil]

6 hours ago, p6x said:

More food for thoughts from the Elf lubricant page (Elf provides lubricants in MotoGP)

 

About as basic as it gets. Thicker (higher viscosity oil) absorbs more power than a lower viscosity oil. Too low a viscosity doesn't provide the mechanical protection and as oil gets hotter it gets thinner.

Here's a tip, with a full group 4 synthetic oil you should aim to run the lowest W viscosity you can get while still observing the upper viscosity requirement. In the Guzzi BB engine ZDDP content is an important issue and you should aim for nothing less than 1000ppm preferable 1200ppm minimum. 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

6 hours ago, p6x said:

I have asked for an expert opinion.

I have contacted an Oil and Gas PVT laboratory manager to tell me what he thinks.

Again standards! the test results provided are not always determined using the same method, so we cannot compare apple to apple. Still, I would rather go with brands that make the effort to provide a product data sheet. Even if in the case of Castrol, the data sheet is from 2018. The new API standard is from 2000.

AMSOIL lists the former API standards, but those data sheets are probably not updated as often as they should.

But this is all we have for comparison.

Now, if my friend's laboratory was not in Dubai, I would be able to purchase all the brands, and get him to run some of the tests on the side.

As for Castrol, it was there along with Motul when I started to get interested in motorbikes. Motul being the reference for motorcycles at the time. But this was Europe. I have no clue what historic brands existed in the US back in the Standard Oil days....

 

Can you provide a comprehensive data sheet for Motul oil, any Motul full synthetic oil? I've never been able to locate one. 

Ciao

[p6x]

7 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Can you provide a comprehensive data sheet for Motul oil, any Motul full synthetic oil? I've never been able to locate one. 

Ciao

I was going to come back with Motul, because I think I found my oil of choice.

I found a post from a fellow who runs a Moto Guzzi California, and he quoted the Motul 7100 10W-60 as his go to oil. I was intrigued because 10W-60 would seem to be ideal for the Guzzi V11.

I checked the Motul website, and found they recommend the Motul 5100 15W-50 for V-Twin.

Like you, I looked for a technical datasheet but what is posted on their website but they only state they are API and JASO compliant; nothing about ASTM or ISO tests.

On the French version of the website, I have seen a few questions being answered. I am going to ask them if they would be willing to share the Viscosity Index as a very minimum.

I will keep you posted.

I like that you can purchase the oil in jugs of 4 liters, since we need 3.5 liters + Oil Filter, that fits perfectly.

[LowRyter]

So far as Motul, go for the 7100 (full synth) or 5100 (blend).  Don't use 300 racing oil.  The first two can be blended with other types and weights, the 300 can't.  So if you're traveling and need to top up, the 300 would be a bad choice.

I use the 5100 in my Ducati and use Castrol Motorcycle Synth Blend in my Guzzis.  

[p6x]

13 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

So far as Motul, go for the 7100 (full synth) or 5100 (blend).  Don't use 300 racing oil.  The first two can be blended with other types and weights, the 300 can't.  So if you're traveling and need to top up, the 300 would be a bad choice.

I use the 5100 in my Ducati and use Castrol Motorcycle Synth Blend in my Guzzis.  

The Motul 5100 15W-50 semi-synthetic is what Motul recommends for Twins. I wrote to the headquarters and ask them to provide me with a few of the ASTM tests results, to be able to compare with the Motul 7100 SAE 10W-60 fully synthetic.

Throughout my search for the best oil, I think Elf would possibly be another candidate. But you cannot get it here in the USA. ELF is supplier of oil for the MotoGP and Superbike world championships.

Check out the various motorcycle oils they offer, and each has a data sheet with the properties; https://catalog.elf.com/en/automotive/motorcycles-and-scooters?app=4-stroke-engine-oil

When you check the properties of their competition oil, the HTX 0W-20 you understand why this kind of lubricant is not suitable for an engine like the V11. Look at the kinematic viscosity at 40 and 100 degC, and compare with the Castrol and AMSOIL from my other post... unfortunately they don't use the ASTM method to compute the High Temperature High Shear viscosity.

 

[p6x]

17 hours ago, docc said:

Try to get Castrol to declare the base oil used in their product.

True Grade 4 and, more so, Grade 5 base oils are hard to come by.

But in a 100% synthetic lubricant, there would not be any oil base, do you agree?

In semi-synthetic or what is also called "blend", they would then use a mineral base oil, which obviously can be anything.

But I do believe the kinematic and dynamic viscosity tests should be a good indication of what oil is preferable. If only they would publish it openly like Elf does.

[p6x]

I found another oil Brand, German, Liqui Molly who has lubricant recommended for our V11 engines:

https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/gb/service/oil-guide.html#oww:/api/v1/oww/101/GBR/ENG/4/a02a533fa87869ff/c2dd8655b82c8fd7/954f0940624f1d950b784a0852e063d5/

Both engine oils (SAE 5W-40) have complete data sheets; although they used a different ASTM method for the kinematic viscosity tests.

Sold in the USA 4 liters jug: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D91Q1DM?tag=amz-mkt-fox-us-20&ascsubtag=1ba00-01000-org00-mac00-dsk00-nomod-us000-pcomp-feature-pcomp-feature-pcomp-wm-11&ref=aa_pcomp_xim1

[paulnaz]

2 hours ago, p6x said:

But in a 100% synthetic lubricant, there would not be any oil base, do you agree?

 I believe that you'll find all but a few oil mfgr's use crude oil as their base stocks. Highly distilled, but  additive recipe's make the difference. Top Secret of course

  Paul B

[docc]

RedLine is 100% PAO and  ester base stock.  One of the very few true full synthetics.  I stopped using Lucas motor oils when I could not find their base stock.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/RLO_PRODUCT_CATALOG_2018.pdf

[Chuck]

Lucas is an Indiana company, and as far as I'm concerned, a purveyor of snake oil.

[p6x]

16 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Lucas is an Indiana company, and as far as I'm concerned, a purveyor of snake oil.

I did not know there were snakes in Indiana...

[Chuck]

Oh, yeah.. we gots em.

[p6x]

3 hours ago, docc said:

RedLine is 100% PAO and  ester base stock.  One of the very few true full synthetics.  I stopped using Lucas motor oils when I could not find their base stock.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/RLO_PRODUCT_CATALOG_2018.pdf

I followed the link, but I did not see any engine oil for motorcycles, did I miss it, or do they only cater for four wheels? I see they have 2 stroke oil, but mainly for karts.

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, docc said:

RedLine is 100% PAO and  ester base stock.  One of the very few true full synthetics.  I stopped using Lucas motor oils when I could not find their base stock.

https://www.redlineoil.com/Content/files/RLO_PRODUCT_CATALOG_2018.pdf

Mobil1 is a full group 4 synthetic docc. Mobil invented group 4 oils from memory.

Ciao