Synthetic Oil

[Lucky Phil]

1 minute ago, docc said:

This is why motor oils rated for diesel engines can be favorable to flat tappet motors.

True docc but there are so many bespoke oils now formulated for flat tappet engines specifically that don't compromise other areas there's really no need to use diesel oils anymore.

Ciao

[docc]

7 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

True docc but there are so many bespoke oils now formulated for flat tappet engines specifically that don't compromise other areas there's really no need to use diesel oils anymore.

Ciao

FWIW, I've never used CJ-4/CI-4 or whatever diesel rated oils in mySport. I've used them in other machines, though.

I settled on the full PAO/ester RedLine 20W-50 long ago.

"Full-synthetic with PAO and Ester base stocks and 2200 ppm of ZDDP "

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, docc said:

FWIW, I've never used CJ-4/CI-4 or whatever diesel rated oils in mySport. I've used them in other machines, though.

I settled on the full PAO/ester RedLine 20W-50 long ago.

"Full-synthetic with PAO and Ester base stocks and 2200 ppm of ZDDP "

A lower W number would be better docc, full Ester base of course. Now your engine is getting a few miles up it may be worth considering a 60 weight. Maybe a 10W-60. I run this in the Daytona engine and many use the 10W-60 in Germany.

Ciao

[p6x]

4 hours ago, docc said:

FWIW, early V11 viscosity specification is 20W-50. Later the spec changed even though the motor did not change appreciably.

Interesting point;

As I started to collect data, I was looking at Shell Advance;

They distinguish between the V11 Le Mans 2003 and 2004 with recommended SAE 10W-40, and the V11 Le Mans 2001-2002 for which they recommend SAE 15W-50.

It seems to corroborate Guzzi's specs.

So far, Shell seems to be the sole brand to propose a different oil based on the V11 year.

[p6x]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

The missing link here in the data sheet is for the V11 is ZDDP (zinc) content for flat tappet engines. Phosphorous and sulphur from memory a a partial substitute but flat tappet oils usually have a minimum 1000ppm of zinc and the other two to help offset the reduction in zinc not replace it. Any oil designed to be kind to a CAT converter isn't going to be kind to flat tappets. 

Ciao 

I have been sifting thru many data sheets, but I was never concerned about metallurgy until that tappet came around.

Phosphor, Sulfur zinc would be part of the so-called additives, but they are not always disclosed to the public.

Do you have any example of a brand that disclose the full recipe of their lubricant? 

[p6x]

@Lucky Phil

I found a Motul 7100 5W-40 analysis done by a laboratory and published on the S1000RR BMW Forum;

The lab report the oil contains 1121 ppm of Zinc, and 1005 ppm of phosphorus.

Would that meet the required needs for the V11 tappets?

https://www.s1000rrforum.com/threads/motul-7100-5w40-blackstone-oil-analysis-report.245663/

 

[Lucky Phil]

23 minutes ago, p6x said:

@Lucky Phil

I found a Motul 7100 5W-40 analysis done by a laboratory and published on the S1000RR BMW Forum;

The lab report the oil contains 1121 ppm of Zinc, and 1005 ppm of phosphorus.

Would that meet the required needs for the V11 tappets?

https://www.s1000rrforum.com/threads/motul-7100-5w40-blackstone-oil-analysis-report.245663/

 

Yep, just.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

37 minutes ago, p6x said:

I have been sifting thru many data sheets, but I was never concerned about metallurgy until that tappet came around.

Phosphor, Sulfur zinc would be part of the so-called additives, but they are not always disclosed to the public.

Do you have any example of a brand that disclose the full recipe of their lubricant? 

Here's one that does and what I use in my Daytona engine. Read the description also. I think on the Penrite sight these some good technical stuff from memory as well. You really need to dig and research more these days than you did 10 years ago. Back then it was all out there.

https://penriteoil.com.au/assets/pis_pdfs/MC-4ST 10W-60 (100percent PAO & ESTER) .pdf

[p6x]

@Lucky Phil

The complete disclosure of their lubricant recipe is to be commanded. One wonders why this is the exception and not the rule.

So far, none of the companies I contacted have responded.

At least, we know the Motul 7100 5W-40 has 1100 ppm zinc contents, compared to the 1800 ppm of the Penrite MC-4ST 10W-60.

 

[p6x]

@Lucky Phil

Unfortunately, Penrite MC-4ST 10W-60 is not available in the USA.

I spoke to the only Penrite stockist in the USA, www.RestorationStuff.com, and they do not carry the motorcycle oil.

[p6x]

@docc, @Lucky Phil

Out of all the brands I wrote to, Liqui Moly is the only one that provided feed-back:

Quote

 

to me

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pisk, thank you very much for contacting us and your interest in our LIQUI MOLY products.

ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphates) has been the most common AW (anti wear) additive comination in the past but has been more and more replaced / displaced by more modern chemical AW and EP (extreme Pressure) additives in today´s motor oil formulations due to enviromental regulations and new developed additives.

The Zinc / Phosphorus level itself is regulated by the ACEA and API rating as well as by the vehicle manufacturers. Zn and Ph are still part of the additive package but only "small pieces of a big puzzle". It´s the well-balanced combination of many different additives inside the additive package of a oil that gives a oil a specific performance - so don´t focus only to the Zn level to identify how "good" the anti-wear properties of an oil is, that´s why we don´t focus on publishing this particular value.
 
Our Motorbike 4T Synth 5W-40 Street Race has a outstanding additive combination inside and is well-proven to work proper under racing conditions in high performance motorbikes. It is suitable to use for all bikes  where a oil according to current specifications is required or recommended, the level of Zinc is above 1000 ppm.


Freundliche Grüße / Best regards

 

[docc]

LiquiMoly is the choice of my trusted ///M roadster technicians.  

[po18guy]

Dad flew with Valvoline in a single engine aircraft. That was long ago, but they have recently introduced a synthetic, flat tappet engineered oil in collaboration with Cummins, called Extreme Blue. The V11 is running on it and I note no consumption problems, even though I ride at 4500 RPM or so.  Zinc is good - well above the 1000 ppm threshold.

[footgoose]

I'm sorry I have nothing to offer on the tech level, but I am following with much interest and with gratitude to those doing the foot(finger)work to arrive at the best oil for our V11's. In the end a short list of brands weights and compounds will hopefully leave us with a mutually acknowledged preference. I think the frustration felt by many, from years of oil threads on this- and many other- sites is, they go nowhere other than "this is what I use". I'm glad to see the oil analyzed as to what it offers, and the engine analyzed as to what it needs.

[p6x]

@footgoose

In my former job, you could never do anything without first having a design package that met approved standards, and said package reviewed by third party authorities; once the equipment would be built and certified according to that approved design, you would still need to get an approval to use it in a specific application. e.g. verified operating envelope.

Therefore, oils that met the API and JASO standards have most likely been tested before getting the seal. By the way, API has developed a seal that will be printed on oil meeting their latest standard.

I feel that we are hammering this oil topic into oblivion, since I believe most of the modern oils follow very precise guidelines and recipe.

Generally speaking, each oil brand is telling us their oil is perfect for our engine, and we probably feel that we are using the best oil for our engine too.

Personally, I am going to give points to Liqui Moly for two reasons:

Number 1; they replied to my query. So far, they are the only ones that did. Not that it proves anything, but at least, we are now better educated. Or at least, I think I am. It makes sense to me, that ZDDP is no longer the sole magic molecule.

Number 2; Liqui Moly is involved in current MotoGP racing. So they have people actively working on perfecting their products. I am not saying that other brands do not. But we can agree that motorcycle racing and automobile racing have different requirements.

I want to wait longer, to see if I get replies from other oil manufacturers.

I believe the frantic years we went through have disrupted customer service for a lot of companies, and most likely will continue for the near future.

In the meantime, my workshop of choice rolls with Liqui Moly, and they have it available for purchase. While I could also acquire the SAE 5W-40 on line, I want MGS Cycle to benefit from my patronage.