Synthetic Oil

[po18guy]

Any port in a storm: Synthetic Harley oil. The world will always have that. Air-cooled, flat tappets and rockers. Separate transmission. The same lubrication needs. Harley's maybe even more critical than Guzzi, as they have that hot rear cylinder to keep cool.

[footgoose]

@po18guy and that's what I have used, and for the same reasons. It's good to add to one's knowledge base though.

[Lucky Phil]

4 hours ago, footgoose said:

I'm sorry I have nothing to offer on the tech level, but I am following with much interest and with gratitude to those doing the foot(finger)work to arrive at the best oil for our V11's. In the end a short list of brands weights and compounds will hopefully leave us with a mutually acknowledged preference. I think the frustration felt by many, from years of oil threads on this- and many other- sites is, they go nowhere other than "this is what I use". I'm glad to see the oil analyzed as to what it offers, and the engine analyzed as to what it needs.

The biggest misunderstanding with oil is the lower viscosity grade. Mention you run your engine on a 0W-40 and people tell you it's too "thin". They think this because they don't understand engine oil viscosity.

Here's a simple explanation with regards to viscosity for a FULL SYNTHETIC oil. A 0W-40 oil has higher viscosity at room temperature than it does at engine running temperature. End of story. So the engine is designed to do it's work at around 100 deg C a temp where a 0W-40 oil is less viscous, or thinner than it is at a room temperature. So how can the W weight possibly be too thin? 

The confusion is because MINERAL based multigrade oils "shear down" over time so they traditionally ran a higher W number (like 20 weight, 20W-50 for example) so if you didn't change the oil and let it shear down all it's "Viscosity improvers" you still had a baseline viscosity that would provide some half decent engine lubrication. You had a floor viscosity level. Modern full synthetic oils simply don't shear down like that so you can use a W viscosity that's very low (remember still more viscous than it is at running temp) to provide much better cold start and cold temp protection and performance because you don't need the "safety net". You can actually use an oil closer to what the engine needs at start up and still have the hot end needs met as well.

Ciao    

[Chris Wilson]

Well explained, thanks.

[p6x]

From Motul Oils: Oil base Groups explained;

There are five different groups of base stocks used in engine oils.

Groups I and II  are mineral oils (i.e. conventional petroleum oil), while Group III, IV and V are synthetics.

A Group III synthetic is more refined than mineral oil and typically hydro-cracked (higher pressure and heat) to achieve a purer base oil.

Group IV (PAO) is refined mineral oil that undergoes a special process called “synthesizing.” Generally speaking, Group IV performs better than Group III oils in handling heat, oxidation, low temperature start ups, and has a higher film strength and viscosity index (ability to flow). However, with today’s technology, some Group III oils perform as well as a Group IV.

Synthetic Group V (Esters) oils are mostly made from vegetables, minerals and animal fatty acids. Esters are much more expensive because the ingredients are collected from nature, then get synthesized (which is a very expensive process).

Group V Esters have all the advantages of a Group IV PAO, plus they can handle even higher temperatures. When Esters are burned, they leave far less coking deposits and are attracted to metal parts with an electro-chemical bond five times stronger than mineral oil. 

[p6x]

We have another entry in our long list of V11 admissible oils;

It is a brand I knew back from the 70's, and as I am typing this, I don't know if it can be purchased in the USA, I have not checked.

Bardhal present at EICMA 2021

This is an Italian based company, and they have a proper Moto Guzzi V11 selector that includes the brand model and the millesime.

Here's the engine oil recommended for a V11 Le Mans 2003-2004 edition.

Here's the technical data sheet.

They use PAO and Esters in a 100% Synthetic structure, and their own recipe of magic additives that make your engine go round and round longer...

Not cheap either; about 20 EUR for 1 liter.

[paulnaz]

   Made in the USA, packaged all over the world.

       https://bardahl.com/about-us/our-company

    Paul B

[LowRyter]

Bardahl brand was a big racing sponsor in the '50's and '60's on all levels and also internationally.  One of the local Supermodified guys here (dirt 1/2mile) drove the "Bardahl Special".  I can guess there were many local "Specials" not only in the US but in many countries.  They were big brand at Indy, even before STP.   I remember the famous Hydroplane, "Miss Bardahl".  I can remember seeing photos of sponsorship signs at some of the big races in Europe as well.  I think you might see a Bardahl sign or sponsored car at any racetrack and any level back then.

 

[po18guy]

IIRC, those four huge pipes in the Bardahl Special came from an Offenhauser DOHC 4-valve four. A monoblock engine with no head gasket to blow.

Ole Bardahl started his oil business in Seattle, in 1939. It was huge in the 50s-60s. Off and on since then as  the market has become glutted with lubricant brands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardahl

Now Mandello approved you say? As my 1st generation Italian-American neighbor used to say: "Ain't dat cute!"

[LowRyter]

Bobby's car (top photo) had a 4 cyl Offy as well.  It was turbocharged to the moon, an advantage since there is no head gasket.  Bobby won the '68 "500", the first turbo of many turbos to win there.  Some say it might have made 1000hp in qualification trim. 

Offys raced at Indy until the late '70's.  The engine was designed by Harry Miller in the '20's, versions of his engines raced at Indy for better than 50 years.   Miller's most famous were 1.5 liter supercharged DOHC straight 8's in the '20's, some were front wheel drive for a low profile.  Miller's designs also inspired Ettore Bugatti's racers.   Miller was a designing savant.  He imagined how a component would operate and sometime he would size it with his fingers, a draftsman would measure his open fingers with calipers and use that as base spec.  I have a book about him. 

[Lucky Phil]

6 hours ago, p6x said:

We have another entry in our long list of V11 admissible oils;

It is a brand I knew back from the 70's, and as I am typing this, I don't know if it can be purchased in the USA, I have not checked.

Bardhal present at EICMA 2021

This is an Italian based company, and they have a proper Moto Guzzi V11 selector that includes the brand model and the millesime.

Here's the engine oil recommended for a V11 Le Mans 2003-2004 edition.

Here's the technical data sheet.

They use PAO and Esters in a 100% Synthetic structure, and their own recipe of magic additives that make your engine go round and round longer...

Not cheap either; about 20 EUR for 1 liter.

They tell you almost nothing. I'm not using oil that I can't source the specific details on even if it uses "their own recipe of magic additives" Without full disclosure of the specific details it's all just a marketing exercise.

 

Ciao

[LowRyter]

Phil, Bardahl was always better than STP, even though STP was the "Racer's  Edge".

 

[Tomchri]

A comment, or no comment about the Torco oil ?  They were ahead in the 50s, when blown alco engines struggled.   V long time since I stopped listening to sellers.  Used Torco for a long time SR5 and T4R,wish l could get it again. Yes IPA time.

 Cheers Tom 

[Lucky Phil]

55 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

Bobby's car (top photo) had a 4 cyl Offy as well.  It was turbocharged to the moon, an advantage since there is no head gasket.  Bobby won the '68 "500", the first turbo of many turbos to win there.  Some say it might have made 1000hp in qualification trim. 

Offys raced at Indy until the late '70's.  The engine was designed by Harry Miller in the '20's, versions of his engines raced at Indy for better than 50 years.   Miller's most famous were 1.5 liter supercharged DOHC straight 8's in the '20's, some were front wheel drive for a low profile.  Miller's designs also inspired Ettore Bugatti's racers.   Miller was a designing savant.  He imagined how a component would operate and sometime he would size it with his fingers, a draftsman would measure his open fingers with calipers and use that as base spec.  I have a book about him. 

I own an Offy engine, well kinda. GMP all metal diecast 1/6 scale. Weighs about 5 lbs. They had their day in the sun.

[LowRyter]

My goodness Phil, you're so cool.  Anyone mechanically inclined amazes me.  On top of that, you're fun and have a great sense of humor.  Your tolerance to the mechanically challenged, well, I'm still here.

Pretty cool Offy.