Bad Starter on my LeMans?

[Stick]

I didn't want to hijack the other recent thread on the starter solenoid...

 

So my 2002 Lemans decided that it doesn't want to crank the engine.    Sounds like the starter is engaging with a loud CLACK, but the engine won't spin over.  Oh, she's got only about 12,000 miles...

 

So out comes the wrenches and a voltmeter.  Take all the wirea off both battery posts, clean them, then put only the necessary wires back on.  (leaving the tender pigtail off, the electric heated lead, etc.)

 

CLACK.  shift it up to 6th gear to make sure the engine still turns.  Yes, thankfully.  Back to neutral, look at the voltage drop on the + wire from battery to starter.  1.5 volts while I hold the start button.  about 1V on the black wire from (-) battery post to the engine. 

 

Grabbed my DC ammeter (clamp-on - Sears Craftsman.. about $60 !!!) I see an impulse of over 200A, down to about 180A.  

 

And now I notice some heat from various areas, like the + post on battery. But even more heat from the rear of the starter.  

 

I'm going to try one more  "test" to se if I can make the starter spin.  I thought about this late last night:

Go back to 5th or 6th gear.  Mount the bike, coast down driveway then simultaneously bump the engine w/ the clutch and hit the starter button  --  see if engine flywheel and "kick" the starter into action.

 

 

Any other ideas before I kill myself doing this?  

 

 

Other idea is to remove starter and bench test...

 

Stick

 

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

At 180 Amps the motor should be spinning over fine, perhaps the magnets have let go their hold on the housing, time to pull it apart I think, they are quite easy, just lay the parts out as you take them off.

 

Magnets falling off is quite common, I think you can buy a replacement housing. Middle Age Warrior glued his back on.

[gstallons]

p.s. These magnets must be placed exactly where they were .

[Craig]

Can magnets detaching cause a simple reduction in torque or do they cause a complete failure?  It seems my starter is getting progressively weaker.  Could be the battery but it is pretty fresh.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If the magnets are moving the motor may get weaker.

If they break off they could jamb the armature.

 

While it's cranking

Measure the battery Voltage, that's the real test of condition.

Measure also at the starter solenoid to chassis.

And measure from negative to chassis, that will tell you how good the ground is.

[andy york]

Maybe I missed something in above and I hate to be crude....lol....

have you tried jumping the hot to the solenoid with a screwdriver or such ?

Just a quick way to see if the starter is actually functioning.

[Stick]

Andy, great idea.  Forgot this as I used to do this on my old 6 cyl. Camaro.  

 

Roy: I should have mentioned that I did try a booster box with no change in the "clack".  

And the battery voltage sags down towards 6V when 180 A is flowing (no huge surprise to me).  A different, newer battery showed the same results.  

 

Sounds to me like the magnets might have dropped off the housing.  Seems logical.  I didn't know that this sort of thing was a "known failure".   And if this is the case, I'll skip trying the bump-start push-the-button idea...

 

Anyone know what Middle Age Warrior used for adhesive?  

Just a nice slow setting 2 part epoxy?  

I know motors well, so I'm leaning that way.

 

Thanks very much for all the replies!

Stick

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'll ask him

 

BTW he lives in Caracas Venezuela where it's always hot, gas is 5c per liter and there's no speed limit.

 

I reckon we need to hold a rally down there

[Midle Age Warrior]

Hello guys

I have been apart from the forum since I am living an affair with a Japanese girl, a 2000 Yamaha TDM 850 she drives me crazy and now that my V11 is behaving good I ride her just for serious fun .

Yes stick I had some problems back with my starter ends up the magnets unglued from the can and the starter stop working.

I was luck enough to find them undamaged they just felt and sticked to the armature.

Since everything was OK I cleaned all the parts carefully and then I use an epoxy glue (not a particular brand just one I could get at my local hardware store) but Loctite has an special compound to glued metal and magnetics if I can remember well.

You do not have to worry about the position of the magnets, I used some pieces of wood to maintain them equally spaced after add some glue press them and let the glue cure complete.

Since I repaired it I have not issues at all, I know you can find on the market the can with the magnets already glued but if is already bad but complete why not give a try to the old one.

 

 

 

And KiwiRoy for your information due to the new exchange rate, the price for a liter of premium gas today in Venezuela is about $0.001, You can fill the tank up with a cent including a tip of five times what you pay for gas, so if you guys want to ride around here just let me know 

 

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

If you get the magnets out by 90° the motor will run backwards.

Good luck getting it to start that way

Flipping the brush leads will reverse it back again.

 

The magnets go N S N S around the clock, don't ask me what's at 12 O'clock I have no clue.

[Stick]

Wow gents, thank again for the tips.  I'll try to make sure that the magnets stay in their original positions.  I'll mark or paint them before removing, if I can. 

 

I studied rotating machines in college, so DC motors are no stranger to me.  

 

I had a chop saw that I grabbed "off the curb" about 10 years ago. B&D brand. The motor was toast.  Then I grabbed a some other B&D tool off the curb.  Maybe a hedge trimmer.  Motors seemed identical.  R&R into the saw.  Blade rotated backwards (usable, but pretty dangerous).  I ended up rewiring the field windings backwards.  Problem solved!  See?...sometimes you CAN turn Shite into gold!

 

For now, my Stelvio is doing my grunt commute daily here.  But I'll be digging in, maybe over the holidays.  

Too bad, too, cuz I just installed an H4 LED element in my headlight of the Lemans...and have not tried it in the dark yet!

But the Stelvio has the better alternator for my electric heated gear anyway...

 

Stick

[Craig]

If the magnets are moving the motor may get weaker.

If they break off they could jamb the armature.

 

While it's cranking

Measure the battery Voltage, that's the real test of condition.

Measure also at the starter solenoid to chassis.

And measure from negative to chassis, that will tell you how good the ground is.

 

It was the battery.  It was two years older than I remembered...

[Stick]

So, finally removed my starter.  It was the easiest starter to remove that I've ever encountered!  Tried hot-wiring the starter.  Kicked the solenoid with a test lead.  Bendix gear deploys just like I thought.  But no rotation.  Took it apart.  One magnet dropped off, and appears to have been rubbing against the armature.  Not sure how long, but there's a LOT of magnetic debris in there.  The maggnet is notably thinner than the intact other 3. 

 

I can place pics if you gent want to see the destruction.  let me know.

 

What I'm tring to decide is the starter replacement.  There are $70 ones on eBay from DB Electric.  I've done business w/ them before for small engine starters.  BUT I cannot read my Valeo part number...I can see D6R but no other characters.

 

And many of these starters say "8 Teeth"  or "9 Teeth".   I count 9 on mine.  

 

Here are 2 that I see:

9 teeth :  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-MOTO-GUZZI-STARTER-0307307110-30730710-30730711-/171213848637?fits=Make%3AMoto+Guzzi&hash=item27dd24003d:g:UXsAAOSw~bFWKmbE&vxp=mtr

 

8 T:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replacement-Moto-Guzzi-Starter-D6RA21-D6RA210-MG-3073071-EnDuraLast-NEW-/252160230039?fits=Year%3A2002|Make%3AMoto+Guzzi|Model%3AV11|Submodel%3ALeMans&hash=item3ab5ebc297:g:XBMAAOSwwbdWPRFA

 

and this one says it's compatible w/ my 2002 Lemans.

 

Here's another 9T:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-MOTOR-FITS-MOTO-GUZZI-V11-1998-1999-EV-2000-JACKEL-2000-2001-SPORT-/400811360064?hash=item5d5237ff40:g:eLEAAOSwPcVVvtKJ

 

Here's DB Electric:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-NTX750-V1000-California-II-III-MOTO-GUZZI-MOTORCYCLE-1982-1992-/360832986741?fits=Make%3AMoto+Guzzi&hash=item5403526e75:g:ACgAAOSwFnFWCUYT&vxp=mtr

 

I'm leaning sticking with a 9 Tooth model...

 

Just doing a sanity check.

[gstallons]

If it were me , I would contact euromotoelectrics and see if they could sell you the housing with magnets in place or just another starter .

[Kiwi_Roy]

So which way did you go?

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!