Out of hibernation - electrical gremlins

[Kiwi_Roy]

In my last post I asked if the start relay had 4 pins, what was I thinking, it must be a 5 pin, the small one in the middle of the 3 at bottom (87a) provides a signal to the headlight relay.
Yes the headlight must go when you turn the key on, if it doesn't the bike wont charge
There is a male/female connector the regulator plugs into, the female (red/black wire) is actually tapped into the feed to the headlight it feeds 12Volts to the regulator to turn it ON.
The 30 amp fuse should be replaced. shine up the socket connectors with fine emery and bend them so they put more tension on the fuse blades.

 

I will post a sketch of the fuse relay area, the wiring changed a little around 2002 so instead of the start relay providing 12 Volts to the top (30) of relay 2

Photobucket is not co-operating at the moment

 

it just feeds relay 2 relay coil, I see you have a 2000, it should be the same as my sketch.

 

[Gio]

Lord Roy ... good to hear from you mate.

 

Yes - all seems to be good at the socket of headlight relay #2 - top connector having 12v from the starter relay - but jumping that across to the second connector down does not fire the headlight etc.

 

The 30A fuse shows typical signs of over-heating but tests out ok - will replace anyway as recommended.

 

Will dive right into that regulator connector next and report what I find ...

[Gio]

So I think we are making some progress :

 

Tried replacing 30A fuse with a 25A - same result. Cleaned up 30A / socket and replaced.

 

1) single m/fm bullet connector ... female side has a red/green wire from 30A (and has 12v which goes to 0 when 30A fuse pulled) and the male side has two red wires towards the reg.

 

2) double "auto" connector has red/black female from loom to black male to reg - NO VOLTAGE on female side ... this is presumably the one you refer to that taps into headlight circuit

 

So it would appear that this is my problem ..?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes, you must have 12 Volts on the Female of the pair the male BTW is the charge light, if you short that to chassis it will turn on.

The idiot lights are also powered from the headlight relay so they won't work unless the light is on, brilliant thinking by Luigi eh!

Of course you know there's a 4 pin connector in the headlight, just below the bucket on mine.

 

Is the headlight going? if not check the connector inside the socket of relay 2 is not pushed out the back., poke something tiny down there.

 

I have sketches of all that stuff but can't get photobucket and our firewall to play nice.

I won't bore you with the details but sometimes it can take 3 days to get a picture posted between photobuckets Jpeg requirement and my Mac's bitchiness, if I have your address I can e-mail you the sketches by return mail.

 

I'm going to change my handle to SpamBot LOL

[Gio]

Thanks Roy - and yes, to confirm I have no headlight, brake light, horn or warning lights (ie all the things your diagram indicate are fed by that circuit) as well as no 12v to reg from the same circuit as just determined.

 

I will check the base of RL2 - but it looked ok when I tried the jumper.

 

I'm not familiar with the 4-way connector in the headlight (never had occaision to work in that area) but will check it - your thinking is that it may be loose I'm guessing?

 

An email would be much appreciated ... I have been trying to work from the one in the factory manual - which looks like it is from a 3rd or 4th photocopy with a mixture of French/German/English ... not helpful!

 

Sending you a PM now.

 

Thanks again

 

Edit - PM bounced back saying you unable to receive new messages ..?

[Gio]

Guru Roy is helping me on this one ... but wanting to keep the thread going in case it is of help to others in the future ... should probably be re-named something like "bike starts, but no headlight/horn/brake/warning lights and not charging"

 

Update - solid 12v @ top of headlight relay #2 (connector removed from base to be sure) but this drops to 0v when jumpered across to second blade (ie the one that provides 12v to headlight/horn/brake light etc) ... so something is pulling this down.

 

Tried disconnecting the 4-way connector to headlight ... still no 12v at second blade.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I suspect somehow you are loosing the signal for the headlight from Relay 2 it's a Red Black wire. Note if you look at the schematic it shows it branching out to several different locations, it's actually soldered in the loom, very good quality joint. Perhaps there is a loose connection in the relay base. I believe the regulator Male/Femail connector is about the first place it goes to. It could be something like an intermittent connection.

I think if you monitor the female connection of Male/Female at regulator (an easy place to reach with your meter or even better with a test light and wiggle wires you might find it.

Next wrap a wire around the 87 pin of relay 2 and put it back in Relay 2 socket you will be able to check it's getting that far, if not move back to Relay 2/30, then back to 87A of Relay 1.

 

I know you must be turning the key on

 

I have no idea why the e-mail is playing up it's frustrating but it was last week as well, I'll try from home in about 4 hours, as I say try my Yahoo account.

 

\

 

Moto Guzzi, making Electricians out of riders for over 90 years

[Kiwi_Roy]

You just said "solid 12 Volts to top  of relay 2 but something is pulling it down"

I missed that, it shouldn't happen at all, there's the problem

 

You have a high resistance, make sure it's not Relay 1 87A the small middle one, wrap a small wire around the pin so you can measure it when plugged in. just use relays in position 1 and 2 until you get the headlight to run, try pushing the relay sockets down, with a sliver of metal about the size of the small pins that will tell if the contacts are gripping the pins ok.

 

We know Relay 1 is getting a good feed because the bike will start we don't know if the normally closed 87a is working

If you don't have a spare 5 pin relay put a temporary jumper from 30 to 87A for testing that should power up relay 2/30

 

Relay 3 is a nice to have but stuff a wire in 30 and 87 and you can use that as a spare in fact if the sidestand switch is shorted it's not being used anyway,

 

If you need to go riding you could power the headlight circuit from another source like fuse 6 or 7 (switched circuits)

 

Ok heres the wiring at long last, you seem to have too much resistance between the top of relay 1 and top of relay 2

Broken wire, bad relay, bad relay contacts

 

 

You could short between the top of relay 1 and top of relay 2 with a wire around the pins that should make the headlight go the only thing that wont work is turning off the light while cranking.

[Gio]

Customary good info Roy ... I will work through your new suggestions tomorrow (getting late here on the east coast and not good light in the barn!) and report back.

 

I am also comforted with an option to power the faulty circuit from another source as, yes - I really need to go riding ... just looking at the freshly mounted Angel GT's (plus new wheel bearings front and back) insurance ticking away, double digit temperatures etc etc ... enough to drive one insane!

 

Cheers!

[Kiwi_Roy]

I still need an e-mail address, I want to flood you with sketches.

Unless you send me an e-mail case is closed, I'm getting tough.

 

For those with later VIIs here is a slightly different version, Gio, this is not for you.

Without a late model to look at I am unable to verify the R2 coil connections I just took it from Carl's drawing, perhaps someone with an 04 could

check for me.

The top of R2 should come on  and off with the key.

Which side of R2 coil is alive Left or right?

What year is your bike?

[Gio]

Dear Dr Roy

 

It's all good news - thanks primarily for all of your help! Here's what I did this afternoon :

 

1) R1 / 30 has 12v (as expected)

2) connectivity between R1/87a and R2/30 is zero ohms

3) with RL # 1 installed but IGN off I got 12v @ RL2 / 30 ... this surprised me ...? Should this be the case?

4) a wire on RL2 / 87 gave 12v ... but needed to jiggle RL #1 to get this (big clue) and also 2 of the 4 pins of the 4-way HL connector

5) re-connecting the 4-way HL connector dropped this voltage to zero

6) so I swapped RL #1 for a spare

7) when HL connector re-connected - still 12v on  R2/87 and headlight now on (+ brake light / horn / 12v to to reg etc)

8) final check was to make sure batt was charging - 12v to reg (unlike before) and 14.1 v @ 2K RPM ... BRILLIANT!

 

So my conclusion is that, despite the indications being the headlight RL2 was at fault, it was in fact RL1 not delivering the juice to RL2 - just as you had speculated.

 

Thank-you again Roy - you da man!

 

Please advise how I might return the favour?

 

Cheers, very much!

 

Gio

[Kiwi_Roy]

Yes Relay 2/30 is fed from Relay 1/87 which is alive because the coil is off. If you look at the later diagram it's not the case because that Relay 2 is powered thru the ignition switch. IMHO the earlier version is the best.

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

[footgoose]

Roy, what is the cut off year for those early/late layouts? Or, which applies to an '02? And thanks, I'm soaking it all in. I could just compare them to my shop manual ...IF I HAD ONE. Could anyone recommend a good one, and maybe where to get it? I like paper, not a fan of cd.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Footgoose, If you have an 02 please check the wiring.

Unplug relays 1 & 2

With the key Off look for 12 Volts at the 30 pin (at the top on my sketch) of the sockets

If 12 Volts is on both relays it's an early one.

If you have to turn the key On to get 12 Volts on Relay 1 it's the later version.

 

Please let me know

Roy