Odyssey battery and ducati energia regulator

[moscowphil]

I recently thought I had a voltage regulator problem - the bike was over-charging. happily it turned out to be only a dodgy relay causing the problem, but while I was searching the internet for info I came across an advert from Euro Motoelectrics for ducati energia regulaltors, as fitted to our bikes, and was alarmed to see, written in capitals "USE OF ODYSSEY BATTERY ( DRY CELL DESIGN) AND LITHIUM IRON BATTERY NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUPPORTED FOR WARRANTY".  Which seems weird, as I thought  the Odyssey is not much different to any other AGM battery. Does anyone know anything about this? Am I at risk of frying my regulator (I have a PC545 battery)? Would I be better off swapping to a Yuasa? 

[footgoose]

with all the conditioning involved with the Odyssey, I was considering a Shorai LI replacement. I have them in other bikes and love them, but they are fairly new to me, so no long term reports. Super light, higher cca, longer storage, (mo$$) I will follow this thread with interest.

[stewgnu]

I've had zero problems with my gs/yuasa battery.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Reading the other 5 page thread on Odyssey maintenance I can't imagine why anyone would consider them, I'm too lazy for that.

 

I do have a good understanding how the Ducati Energia works since I reverse engineered one.

900 times a second at 4,000 revs the regulator looks at the battery Voltage and asks itself do I see less than or more than 13.8 Volts on the red/black wire going to the headlight.  If it's less it turns the SCRs On for the next half cycle and the regulator sends a pulse of current whatever the alternator will put out into the battery, I suspect this pulse is over 20 Amps as you say (once decided it cannot turn off until the next half cycle. Then the regulator looks at battery Voltage again, the net result is a whole series of current pulses followed by a missing pulse.

As you pointed out a bad relay can screw up the charging by sending a low Voltage to the regulator causing it to turn on every pulse. Typically what the regulator sees is about 0.6 Volts less than the battery terminals, with a bad relay dropping more Voltage it will overcharge the battery

Normal charge 13.8 + 0.6 = 14.4

example with 2 Volt drop

13.8 + 2 = 15.8

Not only will this overcharge the battery but it could also cook the regulator as it never gets a rest.

 

Update

I've been looking at some of Carl Alison's drawings, they show the regulator on some bikes sensing the Voltage downstream of the Ignition switch and headlight relay, that's a recipe for disaster if ever there was one. The regulator reference should be as close coupled to the battery as possible, either through a dedicated relay or perhaps the ECU relay, this will ensure consistent Voltage and a longer regulator life.

 

 

I think the Odyssey may be ok if you condition it with an Odyssey conditioner now and then, I will stick with my Yuassa.

 

The alternator has 14 coils so it puts out 7 cycles per revolution (2 pulses per cycle)

4000 RPM x 14 = 56.000 / 60 = 933 pulses per second

With this information and a frequency counter you can check the tacho.

 

This weird wiring arrangement (measuring the Voltage on the headlight circuit) is why the headlight must be operating for the battery to charge, Adding headlight relays fed direct from the battery cause it to under charge as the regulator now sees the battery Voltage directly without the benefit of adding 0.6. I have an idea on how to improve on the system.

 

 

BTW most other regulators I have seen actually short out the alternator when the Voltage reaches setpoint, I think this is probably kinder on batteries

[docc]

I hope I haven't overblown the Odyssey PC545 conditioning in my other thread. With my batteries lasting the better part of ten years, I can't fault them even with the "normal" chargers I was using.

 

Letting them go flat before trying to recover them is obviously ungood, but that seems valid for any rechargeable batteries.

 

Not sure why my Sport will charge at 14.2v even though the headlight is wired directly from the battery?

[GuzziMoto]

I use Odyssey batteries whenever possible. I do not do any special charging or "conditioning". I get better life out of the Odyssey batteries than any other brand I have tried, and they seem to have more power than any other battery I have tried. I can't fault them. I have tried many of the standard lead acid batteries, including Yuasa. And I have tried Shorai and Ballistic Lithium batteries. I had better results with Odyssey.

I am pretty sure stock OEM battery on a V11 is an Odyssey with a different badge on it. It had a Sparker badge but it was identical to an Odyssey in every way discernible.

[moscowphil]

Reading the other 5 page thread on Odyssey maintenance I can't imagine why anyone would consider them, I'm too lazy for that.

 

I do have a good understanding how the Ducati Energia works since I reverse engineered one.

900 times a second at 4,000 revs the regulator looks at the battery Voltage and asks itself do I see less than or more than 13.8 Volts on the red/black wire going to the headlight.  If it's less it turns the SCRs On for the next half cycle and the regulator sends a pulse of current whatever the alternator will put out into the battery, I suspect this pulse is over 20 Amps as you say (once decided it cannot turn off until the next half cycle. Then the regulator looks at battery Voltage again, the net result is a whole series of current pulses followed by a missing pulse.

As you pointed out a bad relay can screw up the charging by sending a low Voltage to the regulator causing it to turn on every pulse. Typically what the regulator sees is about 0.6 Volts less than the battery terminals, with a bad relay dropping more Voltage it will overcharge the battery

Normal charge 13.8 + 0.6 = 14.4

example with 2 Volt drop

13.8 + 2 = 15.8

Not only will this overcharge the battery but it could also cook the regulator as it never gets a rest.

 

I think the Odyssey may be ok if you condition it with an Odyssey conditioner now and then, I will stick with my Yuassa.

 

The alternator has 14 coils so it puts out 7 cycles per revolution (2 pulses per cycle)

4000 RPM x 14 = 56.000 / 60 = 933 pulses per second

With this information and a frequency counter you can check the tacho.

 

This weird wiring arrangement (measuring the Voltage on the headlight circuit) is why the headlight must be operating for the battery to charge, Adding headlight relays fed direct from the battery cause it to under charge as the regulator now sees the battery Voltage directly without the benefit of adding 0.6. I have an idea on how to improve on the system.

 

 

BTW most other regulators I have seen actually short out the alternator when the Voltage reaches setpoint, I think this is probably kinder on batteries

Thanks for the explanation Roy. I've now fitted a voltmeter so at least I can keep an eye on what is going on. But I'm still mystified as to why Odyssey batteries have been singled out as "not recommended". 

[docc]

I had understood that it is the 13.8 volt charge setting of that regulator. Odyssey is adamant that the PC545 requires 14.2-14.6 volts to charge at normal ambient temperatures. 

 

Fairly brief summary in the other, lengthy thread posted here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18838&p=208786

[GuzziMoto]

I had understood that it is the 13.8 volt charge setting of that regulator. Odyssey is adamant that the PC545 requires 14.2-14.6 volts to charge at normal ambient temperatures. 

 

Fairly brief summary in the other, lengthy thread posted here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18838&p=208786

The thing I go back to, though, is that the Odyssey appears to be the same as the OEM stock battery in the V11. That battery had no issues with the V11 charging system. In fact, it lasted a really long time for most people, just as the Odyssey battery does.

I even have an Odyssey battery now in our Lario. If it can last there it can last everywhere.

[moscowphil]

 

I had understood that it is the 13.8 volt charge setting of that regulator. Odyssey is adamant that the PC545 requires 14.2-14.6 volts to charge at normal ambient temperatures. 

 

Fairly brief summary in the other, lengthy thread posted here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18838&p=208786

The thing I go back to, though, is that the Odyssey appears to be the same as the OEM stock battery in the V11. That battery had no issues with the V11 charging system. In fact, it lasted a really long time for most people, just as the Odyssey battery does.

I even have an Odyssey battery now in our Lario. If it can last there it can last everywhere.

 

I'm wondering if the Odyssey is actually identical to the original Spark 500, or maybe there are subtle differences? I've been wasting time searching the web, and have discovered that the  Spark 500 is still made, by an Italian company called HESA - who also own Enersys who make Odyssey  batteries! According to the specs on their website, the Spark 500 is a 13Ah battery, whereas they say the Odyssey is 12Ah. And there are various other differences in the specs, including different weight, so maybe there are internal differences, and the fact that they look identical is simply down to them using the same moulding for the case? I don't know. Have a look at http://www.hesatecnologie.it/it/marchirappresentati.htmlif you are intereted.

Incidentally I reckon I can out-do your success with the Odyssey in your Lario - The ORIGINAL Spark 500 out of my 02 Scura is now doing an excellent job starting my daughter's V50. This must be some kind of record!

[Lucky Phil]

 

This weird wiring arrangement (measuring the Voltage on the headlight circuit) is why the headlight must be operating for the battery to charge, Adding headlight relays fed direct from the battery cause it to under charge as the regulator now sees the battery Voltage directly without the benefit of adding 0.6. I have an idea on how to improve on the system.

 

 

 

Roy is this a poor choice in wording or the actual case? My wiring the headlights direct to the battery via relays solved the overcharging issue and I have no undercharging problems.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

I recently thought I had a voltage regulator problem - the bike was over-charging. happily it turned out to be only a dodgy relay causing the problem, but while I was searching the internet for info I came across an advert from Euro Motoelectrics for ducati energia regulaltors, as fitted to our bikes, and was alarmed to see, written in capitals "USE OF ODYSSEY BATTERY ( DRY CELL DESIGN) AND LITHIUM IRON BATTERY NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUPPORTED FOR WARRANTY".  Which seems weird, as I thought  the Odyssey is not much different to any other AGM battery. Does anyone know anything about this? Am I at risk of frying my regulator (I have a PC545 battery)? Would I be better off swapping to a Yuasa? 

This I believe is just a small manufacturer covering their arses. AGM and LI batteries are very sensitive to overcharging and they don't want the hassle of warranty claims for bikes with dodgy wiring designs like the Guzzi has or finicky LI batteries that require very tight charging current control.

You are far better to under charge an LI battery than leave it on the charger after it has reached %100 charge. Old wet cell lead acid batteries are a lot more tolerant to overcharging.

Ciao   

[Kiwi_Roy]

Phill, the ones I have pulled apart were set at 13.8, this allows for ~ 0.6 Volts drop in the headlight relay to give 14.4 at the battery. I think 13.8 is a bit low.

It's very easy to increase the setpoint by tweaking the Voltage on the reference wire so it sees 13.8, a diode in series will let it see 13.8 when the battery reaches 14.4. You could make it variable with a potentiometer in series.

 

BTW I only just discovered that some Guzzis the headlight fuse is switched thru the ignition switch so we not only have the headlight relay drop but also the ignition switch drop to contend with.

 

With your headlight relays direct to the battery there is now minimal current in the old circuit so minimal Voltage drop, much better IMHO

 

Can you look at your bike and see if the old headlight relay is fed from the ignition switch

just unplug the relay and see if the  30 terminal is alive with the key Off

30 is the one furtherest away from the 3 small ones.

Thanks

 

If I have to deal with a Ducati Energia again I will power it from the ECU relay it only draws about 12 mA

[Lucky Phil]

Phill, the ones I have pulled apart were set at 13.8, this allows for ~ 0.6 Volts drop in the headlight relay to give 14.4 at the battery. I think 13.8 is a bit low.

It's very easy to increase the setpoint by tweaking the Voltage on the reference wire so it sees 13.8, a diode in series will let it see 13.8 when the battery reaches 14.4. You could make it variable with a potentiometer in series.

 

BTW I only just discovered that some Guzzis the headlight fuse is switched thru the ignition switch so we not only have the headlight relay drop but also the ignition switch drop to contend with.

 

With your headlight relays direct to the battery there is now minimal current in the old circuit so minimal Voltage drop, much better IMHO

 

Can you look at your bike and see if the old headlight relay is fed from the ignition switch

just unplug the relay and see if the  30 terminal is alive with the key Off

30 is the one furtherest away from the 3 small ones.

Thanks

 

If I have to deal with a Ducati Energia again I will power it from the ECU relay it only draws about 12 mA

Yes Roy headlight pin 30 has power with the ignition off.

Ciao

[Scud]

Phil - is the Ducati Energia the regulator that your wrote about and recommended a while back?