Not charging

[Bjorn]

Why do you think the RR is aftermarket? Its exactly as shown in the official moto guzzi manual (see pic above)

 

anyways the voltage is not going up. 

 

Hate to just order parts randomly. Would really like to rule out which part is faulty (if possible).

[Kiwi_Roy]

You are correct, it's just not like one I have seen, I thought the diagram you posted was from an after market regulator fitting instructions.

It's weird they should have two connectors in such close proximity it must be an adapter to a different stator.

Obviously the bullet connectors are overheating, I would eliminate those.

The alternator puts out 16 Volts at idle, that's about right so why not more when you rev it, could it be you have an intermittent connection inside.

They seem to measure good for continuity, take the cover off and inspect where the wires attach to the coils in case there's a bad solder joint.

Inspect the windings for any sign of un-even colour (from heating), usually coils will smell quite strongly if they are burnt out, do a sniff test.

(one of the yellow wires broke on mine, I had to replace them as they were so badly oxidized I couldn't solder them.

 

The ground wire on that regulator is important also, make sure it has a good connection to the chassis. I like to use one of the timing cover screws.

 

I have no experience with those regulators but obviously there is something wrong with the stator if it's not putting out more than 16 Volts. 

 

I have a feeling it's something simple like a broken wire not touching at some angle but ok while testing.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I had another thought.

There are two basic types of regulators Series like the earlier Ducati Energias where they open the circuit when the battery is up to Voltage and Shunt like most other bikes use.

The Shunt regulators short out the alternator when the battery is charged, this sounds pretty crude but they get away with it by shorting out so hard the output Voltage is near zero.

High current but low Volts makes just a few Watts (heat)

Example 40 Amps at 1 Volt is only 40 Watts

 

Honda Goldwings are known to burn out alternators, they have a set of connectors between alternator and regulator situated below the gearbox in the wettest place available. After a while the connector corrodes and builds up resistance allowing the Voltage to builds up and with the high current make lots of Watts until it cooks the coils.

Example 40 Amps at 10 Volts is 400 Watts

 

The point of all this, the bullet connectors on yours show signs of lots of heat (resistance) perhaps the regulator on your Guzzi is a shunt type and the coils are burnt out, easy to check, your nose will tell you.

 

Changing the stator on a Goldwing is a major operation, to avoid a repeat owners often chop the connector out and solder the wires together. Luckily on a Guzzi swapping the stator is only a 1 beer job.

[Stick]

As Roy mentioned, try measuring the AC again with the yellow wires unplugged.  The stator should easily be able to go above 16VAC when you rev the engine.  Let us know what your "no load" AC voltage is at elevated RPM.

 

Your schematic and RR setup are very similar to the one that I substituted on my 2002 Lemans, exept that I added 12 gauge wires back to the battery.  After seeing the lousy factory wiring with the bullet connectors, I figured that a fresh pair of wires to the battery could not hurt at all....  Seems to work like a charm on my bike.  Only I used no connectors.   And no more 30A fuse.  Spliced and wire nuts.  The wire nuts do not get warm at all (they should not, anyway !!).

[Camn]

think the Ducati Regulator is pretty good even though it's old technology, it's let down badly by the Guzzi wiring

To change the source of the reference voltage to the Ducati regulator: there is on the starter motor always a good connection from the battery plus. This is not so far away from the Ducati regulator. Could this be a good point to connect the reference voltage wire form the regulator? A clamp under the same nut (starter)-fuse (which size?)-regulator.  This would like "imitate" the connection of the later "Shidengen" regulators in a way (like it is on the later V11s, cat versions after ca. 2003).

[Kiwi_Roy]

The reference Voltage needs to be a switched source otherwise it will run the battery flat in a few days.

Lately I've been suggesting the ECU relay, another option would be a dedicated relay. If the sidestand interlock has been bypassed it's relay is going to waste. The reason the headlight relay source gives so much trouble the current draw is quite high and the Voltage drop can become inconsistent.

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

[Camn]

needs to be a switched source otherwise it will run the battery flat

OK. Thanks. Or then headlight through a relay, so that it will not strain the reference voltage circuit (as suggested earlier).

[Camn]

Lately I've been suggesting the ECU relay

I studied the wiring diagrams from the workshop manuals with my non-electrician knowledge as far as I can; there seem to be three versions.

 

With cat from 2003 on (KT), manual petcock

No separate reference voltage for the (Shindengen) regulator. Only plus and minus form battery.

 

Non cat (KR/KS) from KR 113816 on (for example 2002), manual petcock

Reference voltage for the Ducati Energia regulator comes through: fuse F5 - light relay ( 34) => the circuit which is an array of many parts and contacts (high/low beam, warning lights, brake lights and horns).

 

Non cat from 1999 on (KR), electric petcock, until KR 113816

Reference voltage for the Ducati Energia regulator comes through even one more contact; fuse F5 - start relay (23) - light relay (34) => the circuit which is an array of many parts and contacts (high/low beam, warning lights, brake lights and horns).

 

A possible connector to get the reference voltage for the Ducati Energia regulator?

On the wiring diagrams with the Ducati Energia regulator, there is a connector 44 = “warning light” which is not used, I understand (on the later version with cat, this wire leads the plus to the lambda heating). The battery plus comes to this connector from the circuit “ignition coils/injection nozzles/fuel pump". Do these draw a lot of current, what about ignition coil charging? Before these, there is only one relay contact, “injection relay” (46), the current to this contact comes directly from the F2.

 

If the plus wire of the connector 44 can be easily found, could this be connected to the Ducati Energia as the switched  reference voltage? The warning light on the dash might work after "igniton on" only during the first 2 sec fuel pump "priming" time, though (now the regulator gets reference voltage when the ignition is turned on, which stops when start button is pushed and comes back when start button is released). But it should work when the motor is running (if there is no charging).

[docc]

(Camn makes such great observations and questions that I've moved the discussion of the sidestand relay to another thread as it is an aside to this thread about charging and reference voltage.)

 

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19478

[Kiwi_Roy]

Woa, someone who can read an electrickery comic

Good detective work Camn

[Bjorn]

Hi guys,

 

Just a small follow up on this issue:

 

I see you have been brainstorming about this item! The last part I find hard to understand . Anyway after our (my brother and me) last findings some parts have been changed. We started with the reg/rec since it was the easiest to come by. We went for an original OEM replacement from Ducati. Did not seem to make any difference at all acc to my brother.

 

Next he changed the stator for a new one. He took it out for some big test rides (4h+) and did not run into any problems. Battery voltage afterwards seems to be OK. He measured the Vdc at the battery during 3000+RPM and the bike makes around 13,8 V on a crappy VOM. He told me this is comparable to values he had seen during measurements in the past. I find this value to be on the low side, since the manual states around 14.0-14.6 Volts.

 

To conclude, we will change those crappy bullet connectors and the battery in the near future. The extra ground for the reg/rec was already in place before this happened and the rest of the wiring looked OK. Im not 100% convinced we solved it but we'll leave it for now and see what happens.

[Kiwi_Roy]

13.8 Volts would be consistent with no load on the headlight circuit, headlight turned Off or fed directly from the battery thru after market relays. The Voltage drop I've observed between battery and reference point is ~ 0.6 V, if you add that to 13.8 it works out around 14.4 at the battery.
Measure from battery + to the black wire on the regulator to get the Voltage Drop and get back to us.

 

The regulator and OEM wiring does a great job of controlling the headlight Voltage, it's not so good at charging the battery.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Perhaps I should explain the regulator doesn't control the battery Voltage directly, it controls the Voltage on the wire going to the headlight about half way along the tank to about 13.8 Volts.

The battery sees 13.8 plus whatever Voltage drop happens to be thru the relay contacts.

With the headlight load ~4.5 Amps the drop is about 0.6 Volts so

13.8 + 0.6 = 14.4

Without the headlight load (off or aftermarket headlight relays) the current thru the headlight wire is near zero so there is no Voltage drop and the battery only sees 13.8 Volts.

It's possible to boost the battery back up again by dropping Voltage in the reference wire so the regulator is fooled.

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!