How to prevent boiling out your rear brake....

[Scud]

I went back and read the section in Total Control about braking. Summary: the faster you go, the less you should use the rear brake. The slower you go, the more you should use the rear brake. He cites the fact that most police use only the rear brake for low-speed precision maneuvers - and many road-racers do not use the rear brake at all.

[JBBenson]

I went back and read the section in Total Control about braking. Summary: the faster you go, the less you should use the rear brake. The slower you go, the more you should use the rear brake. He cites the fact that most police use only the rear brake for low-speed precision maneuvers - and many road-racers do not use the rear brake at all.

 

 

That makes sense. The dynamics of braking on a motorcycle are more extreme than cars: the more you use the brakes, the less effective the rear brake is (and the more effective the front is) as the weight of the bike and rider shifts onto the front wheel......"Twist of the Wrist" covers this well. I don't know "Total Control", I will check it out......

[Kiwi_Roy]

Meanwhile back on the other forum they are busy debating the merits of linked brakes. The general consensus seems to be they are good.

 

My Eldorado had twin leading shoes on the front and a drum on rear. The front brake on it's own is pretty useless but in combination with the rear it's surprisingly good.

 

The flying brick I bought in New Zealand had the exact same small square pads on the back, they were down to the metal fortunately my Bro has a 96 California, first of the FI bikes, I was able to get the half used ones off his bike when he replaced the pads.

 

I don't believe the flying brick or the VII sport have linked brakes.

 

I believe the rear brakes on the Eldorado and my California II are much more effective than those on the VII Sport, something to do with the height to wheelbase ratio.

[footgoose]

thanks for bringing this up. I was wondering why mfg's thought it so important to link brakes or add abs. My '01 K1200RS had partially linked abs. I thought it kind of a gimmick till it saved my butt.  My '00 R1100S had a version of that too. My understanding was, when applying the front, it added some degree of rear on it's own.

[Lucky Phil]

Meanwhile back on the other forum they are busy debating the merits of linked brakes. The general consensus seems to be they are good.

 

My Eldorado had twin leading shoes on the front and a drum on rear. The front brake on it's own is pretty useless but in combination with the rear it's surprisingly good.

 

The flying brick I bought in New Zealand had the exact same small square pads on the back, they were down to the metal fortunately my Bro has a 96 California, first of the FI bikes, I was able to get the half used ones off his bike when he replaced the pads.

 

I don't believe the flying brick or the VII sport have linked brakes.

 

I believe the rear brakes on the Eldorado and my California II are much more effective than those on the VII Sport, something to do with the height to wheelbase ratio.

Neither the original K100 (of which I've owned 2) or the V11 Sport have linked brakes.

Naturally the the rear braking is more effective on the Eldo and Cali as they are both effectively cruisers ( in modern terms for the sake of the argument) and carry their C of G much lower and further rearward than a sports bike.

As I pointed out earlier with these type of bikes the rear brake is a genuine aid to stopping as they transfer much less weight to the front wheel under heavy braking. For this reason they will also generally skid the front tire in a panic brake scenario even on grippy tarmac without any steering or lean inputs. On the other hand a modern sports bike under the same conditions the front wheel will simply stop dead and it will throw you over the bars. It wont skid or slide under extreme braking because the higher C of G is the limiting factor not the ultimate grip from the front tire. So push it to the max and the front wheel will simply stop dead, rotate around the front contact patch and you're on your way to a painful encounter. Don't think this is only at low speed either its the same deal at very fast speeds also as many track accidents have shown using road legal and slick tires.

In my view linked brakes were a "fashion trend" with theoretical advantages that weren't born out in practice, like forks with anti dive. They were actually counter productive to braking because they reduced the transfer of weight to the front wheel and reduced fork dive which actually helped stop the rear wheel from leaving the ground due to lowered C of G. Lasted a couple of years on the track and riders realised it was useless.

That's why I mentioned earlier that if your wearing out rear pads on your V11 and the braking system is in good shape then you have a riding style issue you need to address because you are either unconsciously dragging the rear brake or over using it.    

Ciao 

[Kiwi_Roy]

That all makes sense to me, thanks

KR

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

[docc]

 

Meanwhile back on the other forum they are busy debating the merits of linked brakes. The general consensus seems to be they are good.

 

My Eldorado had twin leading shoes on the front and a drum on rear. The front brake on it's own is pretty useless but in combination with the rear it's surprisingly good.

 

The flying brick I bought in New Zealand had the exact same small square pads on the back, they were down to the metal fortunately my Bro has a 96 California, first of the FI bikes, I was able to get the half used ones off his bike when he replaced the pads.

 

I don't believe the flying brick or the VII sport have linked brakes.

 

I believe the rear brakes on the Eldorado and my California II are much more effective than those on the VII Sport, something to do with the height to wheelbase ratio.

Neither the original K100 (of which I've owned 2) or the V11 Sport have linked brakes.

Naturally the the rear braking is more effective on the Eldo and Cali as they are both effectively cruisers ( in modern terms for the sake of the argument) and carry their C of G much lower and further rearward than a sports bike.

As I pointed out earlier with these type of bikes the rear brake is a genuine aid to stopping as they transfer much less weight to the front wheel under heavy braking. For this reason they will also generally skid the front tire in a panic brake scenario even on grippy tarmac without any steering or lean inputs. On the other hand a modern sports bike under the same conditions the front wheel will simply stop dead and it will throw you over the bars. It wont skid or slide under extreme braking because the higher C of G is the limiting factor not the ultimate grip from the front tire. So push it to the max and the front wheel will simply stop dead, rotate around the front contact patch and you're on your way to a painful encounter. Don't think this is only at low speed either its the same deal at very fast speeds also as many track accidents have shown using road legal and slick tires.

In my view linked brakes were a "fashion trend" with theoretical advantages that weren't born out in practice, like forks with anti dive. They were actually counter productive to braking because they reduced the transfer of weight to the front wheel and reduced fork dive which actually helped stop the rear wheel from leaving the ground due to lowered C of G. Lasted a couple of years on the track and riders realised it was useless.

That's why I mentioned earlier that if your wearing out rear pads on your V11 and the braking system is in good shape then you have a riding style issue you need to address because you are either unconsciously dragging the rear brake or over using it.    

Ciao 

 

I agree completely and respect the experience reflected in this post, and all that  Lucky Phil brings to this forum.

 

Yet, I would, again, add that there are several mechanical factors that compromise the V11 rear brake in addition to the rider dragging or over-braking the rear. The pistons do stick and need to be cleaned and freed regularly. The bleed nipple is on the bottom and needs to be turned up to bleed. Bleed early and often! The actuator for the master cylinder can be maladjusted and keep the master under pressure (as if the foot pedal were being lightly applied). And the actuator for the master cylinder can get terrifically corroded under the rubber boot.

 

Just a few (mechanical) things to see to while we learn to keep our big foot off the brake lever.   

[Lucky Phil]

The other point I forgot to mention with regard to linked brakes was that at the time I think the manufacturers were also responding to the fact that a lot of riders under used the front brake due to inexperience or poor technique or learning to drive a car then converting to a bike and it was seen as a safety related move. If their primary response was the rear brake then we will ensure they get at least some front to stop the thing.

I think riding skills are generally better these days and a lot of those linked systems were mechanically complicated, plus anti skid systems make them redundant now anyway.

Ciao 

[Rox Lemans]

Linked brakes are cool but only on certain bikes. My CTX1300 has linked brakes. An 800 lbs touring bike . Awesome. Linked brakes on a Guzzi just defeats the purpose of buying a goose.One thing I love about my geese is the technology (lack of ). A raw agro bike like a Guzzi keeps your skills fresh.

[Lucky Phil]

Linked brakes are cool but only on certain bikes. My CTX1300 has linked brakes. An 800 lbs touring bike . Awesome. Linked brakes on a Guzzi just defeats the purpose of buying a goose.One thing I love about my geese is the technology (lack of ). A raw agro bike like a Guzzi keeps your skills fresh.

I thought the linked brakes had been assigned to the scrap bin years ago. I need to get out more.

Ciao

[4corsa]

Due to weight transfer to the front under braking, your front brakes do 80-90% of the work. You should only use your rear brake very lightly. The rear of the bike gets very light under heavy braking and can lock up the wheel very easily, which you never want. This is especially true when going downhill. But don't take it from me, take it from AMA champion Kevin Schwantz who said "I used the rear brake exactly once in my career - I'll never forget it because I crashed!"

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ok if rear brakes are so un-required how come it's the front they leave off choppers?

Seriously to say the rear brake is not required is ridiculous, to use a racing situation as the holly grail of motorcycle riding, why, most motorcycles never go near a track.

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

[GuzziMoto]

I would not say the rear brake is "un-required" and I would not leave either brake off. Choppers do so because they are more concerned with looks then function.

But if I had to pick one or the other it is the rear brake I would ditch. Try riding your bike with only the rear brake for a day and see how well that works. A cruiser might work ok like that but a V11 or other sport(y) bike will not stop for shit. Where as using only the front brake I can stop a V11 just as fast as if I was using both the front and rear brakes.

There are times when the rear brake is advantageous to use, but those times are more of the occasional nature and not a constant. Can you use the rear brake more, sure. But you quickly get to a point of diminishing returns. And if you are using it so much that it is over heating the rear brake perhaps you want to re-consider the way you are using the rear brake. Or you can put a massive rear caliper and matching m/c on your bike to compensate for the way you are using the rear brake. Personally, not only do I not understand the caliper and m/c upgrade vs adjusting your riding style, I don't understand why you didn't upgrade the disk itself if you want more rear brake. For example, when you convert a dirt bike to a supermoto bike a standard upgrade to stop the smaller front brake of the dirt bike from not having enough power and fading quickly is to upgrade to a larger diameter disk. For most people that alone is enough to make the brakes work as desired. It is only after that, if you need more brakes, that people start replacing calipers and/or m/c's.

I do agree with docc that the stock rear set up requires careful cleaning and maint. to keep it working right. And you need to make sure it is not a maintenance issue with the stock system that is causing the problem.

But again, people are free to mod their bikes anyway they want. I don't have a problem with that. I do object to when they make statements to the effect of projecting their personal issue that triggered their mod to everyone else. There are lots of people who ride motorcycles like the V11 that have small rear brakes. The V11 is not unusually fast nor is the rear brake unusually small. The vast majority don't have the OP's issue. And please don't say that those who don't have the OP's issue just don't ride hard enough. That is arrogant and wrong.

As to linked brakes, the more common linking method is to apply the front brake when the rider applies only the rear brake. That is because the rear brake lacks the stopping ability of the front brake so to aid riders who don't know how to apply the front brake so they can still stop in a reasonable distance.

Use your brakes the way you want. Mod your brakes the way you want. Feel free to discuss proper braking technique. But please don't assume that you are better at braking / riding then others on the internet. That would be a false assumption. And you know what happens when you assume....

[Kiwi_Roy]

I agree with you up to a point, The VII rear brake is not very effective especially in the wet, at the same time I would be very reluctant to apply the front too hard going downhill on loose gravel. On my Eldorado it is more effective than the front alone. In the early days of motorcycling motorcycles never had a front, and if you think about the roads they were riding

 

For the record I haven't upgraded my rear brake. it's stock, I did make a comment that the similar brake on my K100 (a cruiser) was worn out (by the previous owners)

I don't believe I said I was better at braking than anyone, I know for sure I'm not but it ticks me off when someone infers "I'm a racer, you know nothing"

[GuzziMoto]

I agree with you up to a point, The VII rear brake is not very effective especially in the wet, at the same time I would be very reluctant to apply the front too hard going downhill on loose gravel. On my Eldorado it is more effective than the front alone. In the early days of motorcycling motorcycles never had a front, and if you think about the roads they were riding

 

For the record I haven't upgraded my rear brake. it's stock, I did make a comment that the similar brake on my K100 (a cruiser) was worn out (by the previous owners)

I don't believe I said I was better at braking than anyone, I know for sure I'm not but it ticks me off when someone infers "I'm a racer, you know nothing"

I was not really directing my comments at you, except for the answer to your "question" about why it's the front brake they leave off on choppers.

Your Eldo is a different can of worms then the V11, and has a different braking set up. Comparing the two is not really apples to apples.

Yes, there are times when the rear brake is a good thing. But those times are the exception, not the rule.

The OP has made comments suggesting that "just about anyone who does pretty heavy sport riding will agree that the tiny little rotor with that twin piston caliper on a heavier bike like a v11 is just too small.". It is comments like that I take exception to. When people infer that there is a common design issue, and if you don't experience the same issue they "resolved" you just don't ride hard enough, I take exception to that. It was not directed at you. No offence is meant to anyone here, certainly not to you, Roy.