V11 Shift improvement

[Scud]

Novice transmission worker in need of assistance...

 

Parts diagram at Harpers for reference below:

http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/2000-up-moto-guzzi-motorcycles/v-11-cat-1100-2003-2004/gear-box-selector-en-v11-cat-1100-2003-2004.html

 

Here are some images of the wear on my LeMans. You can see where the arm rubs on the gear - because it does not ride in the center of the channel (between the teeth and the semi-circular notches).

 

  

 

I also noticed that selector spring (#25 on parts diagram) was bent out of shape (compared to a new one) - so it was probably on the way to failure.

 

 

I've filed and polished all the friction-surfaces and installed the selector new spring. Some of the notchiness/resistance is gone and I can get it to flow correctly through all gears, up and down. However, it occasionally does not return all the way from upshifts (this happens maybe 1 out of every 10 shifts - enough to be annoying if that continues when on the bike. I suspect three possible causes:

 

1: The lever still rubs on the gear. The part is very close to being straight, but it still rubs at the pivot as well as the part that slides over the pins. I'd have to put a noticeable curve in it to get it to ride in the center of the gear's channel.

2: I wonder if the lever spring (#28 in diagram above) is weak and should be replaced.

3: The eccentric adjuster - I have not touched this yet, because I can run through all the gears correctly sometimes - I don't think moving this will help the arm return after upshifts.

 

The shop manual is not much help here... it says things like "Check that the hook works correctly."

 

And finally, what's a good sealant for this? It appears to have been put together with black silicone - and the shop manual only says "3M sealant."

[footgoose]

I use Three Bond 1194 for most of my seals. (grey)  I used it on a vintage leaky carb and it worked great there too.

 

I wish we could find a replacement spring that was larger and would not break! The new "upgrade" looks just like the old one to me. I got one each from MGCycles and Harpers. Both measure the same as what I took out.

[Lucky Phil]

Novice transmission worker in need of assistance...

 

Parts diagram at Harpers for reference below:

http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/2000-up-moto-guzzi-motorcycles/v-11-cat-1100-2003-2004/gear-box-selector-en-v11-cat-1100-2003-2004.html

 

Here are some images of the wear on my LeMans. You can see where the arm rubs on the gear - because it does not ride in the center of the channel (between the teeth and the semi-circular notches).

 

IMG_5288.jpg   IMG_5291.jpg

 

I also noticed that selector spring (#25 on parts diagram) was bent out of shape (compared to a new one) - so it was probably on the way to failure.

 

IMG_5294.jpg

 

I've filed and polished all the friction-surfaces and installed the selector new spring. Some of the notchiness/resistance is gone and I can get it to flow correctly through all gears, up and down. However, it occasionally does not return all the way from upshifts (this happens maybe 1 out of every 10 shifts - enough to be annoying if that continues when on the bike. I suspect three possible causes:

 

1: The lever still rubs on the gear. The part is very close to being straight, but it still rubs at the pivot as well as the part that slides over the pins. I'd have to put a noticeable curve in it to get it to ride in the center of the gear's channel.

2: I wonder if the lever spring (#28 in diagram above) is weak and should be replaced.

3: The eccentric adjuster - I have not touched this yet, because I can run through all the gears correctly sometimes - I don't think moving this will help the arm return after upshifts.

 

The shop manual is not much help here... it says things like "Check that the hook works correctly."

 

And finally, what's a good sealant for this? It appears to have been put together with black silicone - and the shop manual only says "3M sealant."

A few things, the selector arm needs to be straight for bend and twist and the correct angle to the pivot pin and getting there is not as easy as you may think. Finding the point where it is bent with a straight edge is the way to go and working it. As I said its not easy and requires some experience. The marks on the pivot end seem to be factory grind marks as well not wear or rubbing. The marks on the return faces of the selector arm in the second photo are an issue for the return. See how notchy it is and bears on one side, see my rework thread but essentially you draw file the face ( ie file along the surface not accross) to remove the wear knotches and align the surface so it bears fully on the pins. Depending on how deep the notches are you may not be able to remove them completely but you need the full face bearing against the pin. Partially assemble the mechanism and check with some engineers blue or similar to confirm you have it right. Do both faces of course.

I would replace the return spring while you are in there and check you have it the right way up as one arm can rub on the cresent shaped section of the cover internally if its not and that can affect operation.

Some slight rubbing of the selector arm on the wheel will be ok but it should not be creating any friction.

Adjust the main eccentric so that as you run through the gears it doesnt over select or under select to any great extent. Its a balance and its a sensitive thing .  

Ditto the Three bond 1194

 

Ciao

[Chuck]

Scud, notice the difference on the flats of your pawl compared to the one I surface ground.

1-005 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

900 miles with no sticking shifter so far.. I'm *not* saying that's the cure, but it's promising.

[Scud]

Thanks. I am getting really good at taking this apart, and I understand how the shift mechanism works now (which I never did before).

 

Supplies:

I've got some engineer's blue and some Three-bond 1194 on order (also some more Redline Heavy Gear Oil).

 

Selector arm straightness:

I checked with a steel straightedge and I can certainly see some variance - which I suppose is from how the part was stamped. How did you straighten this part? I tried bending it by hand with it clamped in the vice, but I don't think I did much.

 

Selector arm friction surfaces:

Here's how I smoothed out the parts that slide over the pins.  I used a broad hand file, then 220-grit sandpaper on a block. I got the two angled edges really smooth, but let a few marks inside the hook.

 

 

The shiny area at the pivot was significantly worn (see pic in previous post), I could feel a bump-up to the unworn surface. I can slide a .010" feeler gauge between the arm and the gear with the pins (left gear in photo below)  - but there is friction between the darker, RH gear and the arm. When I put in my smallest gauge (.0015") it's still tight (as pictured below). It lifts the gear a little when I force the gauge in.

 

 

I'm tempted to grind that whole area of the arm to make it thinner - but I will wait for the spring first.

 

Lever Spring:

I think I will order one of these tomorrow. When the selector is in first and I move the lever as though I am downshifting I need to use a lot force to move the lever (the external one that the linkage connects to). But when it's in 6th and I move it as though I am upshifting (looking for the elusive 7th gear) I can move that linkage lever easily with my littlest finger - there is not much resistance from the spring, and it does not pull the arm back every time.

 

 

This lever also had some wear and burrs - I cleaned it up.

 

Current Situation:

Downshifts are flawless. The arm returns correctly every time - didn't stick even once.

Upshifts have some problems, but not every time. The lever does not fully return. 

 

[Lucky Phil]

Thanks. I am getting really good at taking this apart, and I understand how the shift mechanism works now (which I never did before).

 

Supplies:

I've got some engineer's blue and some Three-bond 1194 on order (also some more Redline Heavy Gear Oil).

 

Selector arm straightness:

I checked with a steel straightedge and I can certainly see some variance - which I suppose is from how the part was stamped. How did you straighten this part? I tried bending it by hand with it clamped in the vice, but I don't think I did much.

 

Selector arm friction surfaces:

Here's how I smoothed out the parts that slide over the pins.  I used a broad hand file, then 220-grit sandpaper on a block. I got the two angled edges really smooth, but let a few marks inside the hook.

 

IMG_5293.jpg

 

The shiny area at the pivot was significantly worn (see pic in previous post), I could feel a bump-up to the unworn surface. I can slide a .010" feeler gauge between the arm and the gear with the pins (left gear in photo below)  - but there is friction between the darker, RH gear and the arm. When I put in my smallest gauge (.0015") it's still tight (as pictured below). It lifts the gear a little when I force the gauge in.

 

IMG_5302.jpg

 

I'm tempted to grind that whole area of the arm to make it thinner - but I will wait for the spring first.

 

Lever Spring:

I think I will order one of these tomorrow. When the selector is in first and I move the lever as though I am downshifting I need to use a lot force to move the lever (the external one that the linkage connects to). But when it's in 6th and I move it as though I am upshifting (looking for the elusive 7th gear) I can move that linkage lever easily with my littlest finger - there is not much resistance from the spring, and it does not pull the arm back every time.

 

IMG_5295.jpg

 

This lever also had some wear and burrs - I cleaned it up.

 

Current Situation:

Downshifts are flawless. The arm returns correctly every time - didn't stick even once.

Upshifts have some problems, but not every time. The lever does not fully return. 

I straightened the pawl arm in the vice with a large shifter to do the tweeking. Its easy to over bend and you need to ID the point at which the bend needs to be made or if its truly banana shaped. With regard to the pivot end use a set square and make sure the arm is at 90 deg to the pivot pin and adjust if not. Make sure the shifter input shaft is fully seated in its cover bush and the return spring isnt fouling anything ( its the right way up)as this will cause the selector arm to be too high. As long as when the shifter arm is properly located and you pull up on the wheel (with its circlip installed) there is just a fraction of clearance this will be ok. It will only need a thou or so. If all else fails I would take a little off the input shaft bush and shim the selector arm down a the pivot with a small shim to clear the gear wheel but it would be a last resort. Get it straight first and the surfaces fully on the pins.

Your finishing of the selector arm faces looks fine now. From memory the shift action is normal and the force required is controlled by the detent spring and the profile of the detent cutouts. They will be slightly small than the DIA of the detent roller so there is not freeplay when in gear. Check the detent roller is sitting parallel to the selector wheel so the roller sits correctly in the depressions and if not pull the arm and bend it a little so it does.

Its a mechanism full of stamped arms which never come out flat and its put together on a production line with no time to properly fettle so all this is normal blue printing adjustments.

 

Ciao   

[Lucky Phil]

Scud, notice the difference on the flats of your pawl compared to the one I surface ground.

1-005 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

900 miles with no sticking shifter so far.. I'm *not* saying that's the cure, but it's promising.

You're back Chuck, not a slow trip i see

Ciao

[docc]

Maybe I could go way back and find the post, but somewhere back in 2003 I said that if there was a worldwide expert on the Guzzi 6speed gearbox, it was *us* .  .  .

 

Now, we know exactly who that is!  LuckyPhil . . . . Chuck . . . Baldini . . . Belfastguzzi .  .  .

There are others, but, hey, thanks so much to all who have revealed the mysteries of Guzzi's first 6speeder.

 

This is not a bad (gear)box at all, but just needs the right *love*    

[Chuck]

 

Scud, notice the difference on the flats of your pawl compared to the one I surface ground.

1-005 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

900 miles with no sticking shifter so far.. I'm *not* saying that's the cure, but it's promising.

You're back Chuck, not a slow trip i see

Ciao

 

You mean

2016-09-04_04-32-01 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

this? 

[Scud]

But officer, I just improved my shifting and needed to run through all the gears. 5th and 6th are illegal in every state...

[Chuck]

Uhhhh.... what's up with the chicken? Who makes that motorcycle?? It's not in my database.. 

[footgoose]

Uhhhh.... what's up with the chicken? Who makes that motorcycle?? It's not in my database.. 

 

Just like at the BMV

[Scud]

The new lever spring is wider, and much stronger than the one that was in there. 

 

 

All my filing and smoothing and shaping almost worked with the weak spring, but after replacement, it shifts perfectly on the bench - ups and downs - quick and crisp returns. 

 

 

My ThreeBond 1194 didn't show up yet. I have some 1211, I suppose I can use that today - for filling and riding tomorrow?

 

And here's a close-up photo of how the pawl spring fits - so MartyNZ can engineer a better one.

 

[Craig]

I went through this yesterday.  Scud, I noticed the same thing you did about the shifter taking more force one direction than the other.  It is because the shifter pawl spring is aiding in one direction and fighting in the other. 

 

I haven't added the pads to the shifter yet, I haven't decide whether I really like that yet.  I gave the shifter pawl a very good polish on all wear surfaces. 

 

I noticed two other places that could benefit from some smoothing.  The ridge that supports the shifter return spring was very rough.  You could feel it when you moved the shifter.  I hit that with a rotary tool with a scotch-brite mandrel.  I feels like butter now.  The other place that was really ugly was the detent roller.  Mine looked like it had been punched out of plate aluminum.  It had very deep scoring running across the faces and it did not rotate freely.  I polished up the face and bearing face, so it rolls much smoother now.     

[Scud]

My shifting is much improved, but I still have occasional difficulty getting into third gear - it is most common when I want to drop from 4th to third to accelerate. It's pretty smooth on engine-braking downshifts, and I missed a 2 to 3 upshift (at the time, I was just seeing how little effort I could apply and still get it to shift). I think the extension on the external shift-linkage arm will amplify the effort.

 

Craig - good explanation of how the 2 springs work together/against. When I first noticed the difference in effort I had a new pawl spring, but a tired selector spring (so perhaps the new one overpowered the weak one). With two new springs, the difference was much less. This now makes me think I should replace the third spring (on the roller arm), and that it's probably a good idea for anyone doing this job to just plan to replace all three springs at the same time.

 

I also noticed that my roller had some wear (new roller is $5.00) - but I did not inspect the surfaces that it rolls against.

 

I am encouraged by this - and will get into it one more time (when I get a new spring and roller). Will polish some more contact surfaces then.