V11 Sport with strange metallic rattle

[MartyNZ]

Does the camshaft run in plain aluminiun bores in the crankcase? If so, could the noise you hear be the camshaft rattling in worn cam journals? I saw this type of wear in old CB450 Hondas.

Or could the cam chain and tensioner need reinspection, perhaps the chain has become loose and is flailing around.

[Lucky Phil]

Another thought, these things wear the camshaft retaining ring quite badly. They came out with a revised item with oiling slots milled in them. I was wondering whether yours is badly worn and causing the noise. The early 4 valve engines made a lot of noise from camshaft end float and there was a service mod to shim the cams to quieten them down. 

If the cam retaining ring is worn í'm sermising it may create excess cam end float on the 2 valve engine as well. May also explain how it seems to change depending on load and temperature of the engine.

It easy to replace, just the front has to come off the engine again and the cam sprocket and then 3 bolts. MG cycle sells the replacements for about $40 or so I think.

 

Ciao

[Tinus89]

When you had the push rods out to check the ends did you also check that they were straight and the rods had no rub marks on them from the push rod tunnels?

Ciao 

 

I did, nothing to see there. They were straight as a mirror and no rub marks whatsoever. They also made a nice "pop" when pulling them out of the bottom joint.

 

 

(...) Or could the cam chain and tensioner need reinspection, perhaps the chain has become loose and is flailing around.

 

 

That would highly surprise me. I replaced both chain and tensioner (for the Stucci type) because of the rattle, and when running the engine again after 5-10 min: rattle.

 

Another thought, these things wear the camshaft retaining ring quite badly. They came out with a revised item with oiling slots milled in them. I was wondering whether yours is badly worn and causing the noise. The early 4 valve engines made a lot of noise from camshaft end float and there was a service mod to shim the cams to quieten them down. 

If the cam retaining ring is worn í'm sermising it may create excess cam end float on the 2 valve engine as well. May also explain how it seems to change depending on load and temperature of the engine.

It easy to replace, just the front has to come off the engine again and the cam sprocket and then 3 bolts. MG cycle sells the replacements for about $40 or so I think.

 

Ciao

 

That could explain the noise, but I would expect it to be louder then... When replacing the cam chain+tensioner, I did not notice excessive play, but I also did not explicitly check it.

How exactly is the cam shaft held into place? I just had a look at the parts drawings, but that remains unclear to me...

What kind of wear and therefore play would that introduce? Axial or radial? 

[Chuck]

 

 

Axial or radial

Axial. 

[Lucky Phil]

Here is a photo of a Daytona phonic wheel and the retaining ring. The retaining ring is identical to the 2 valve engines but it obviously retains the jack shaft where the 2 valve retains the Cam shaft. Note the retaining ring has a large lip around the thrust face where the phonic wheel bears against it to control end foat. Well that face should be flat, hence the wear produces end float and in this case it looks like it was about .5mm or so. I didn't measure it because it was up for replacement anyway. 

During your tensioner replacement you wouldnt have noticed it unless you went looking for it but at you mileage I'd imagine it will be worn and generating end float.

Maybe the source of your noise.

 

 

Here is the later updated version with the oiling slots

 

[Tinus89]

That makes sense... I'll have to find some time to wrench again (just moved house and a lot of stuff needs to be done). I'll have to diagnose and then buy, as the part here in the NL costs not $40, but 90EUR 

[motoguzznix]

Since the sump is already dismounted, you could further dismount the oil filter assembly (just 4 screws) and then drop the rod big end screws to inspect the plain bearings. Reassembling is no problem as the screws must not be replaced, Just to be sure about that.... Torque is around 65 Nm if I remember that well. 

 

My next step would be to inspect the cam shaft axial bearing as Phil an others mentioned. Whith the Stucchi tensioner you can unscrew that small 8 mm nut and remove the tensioner with the chain and wheels in place. At this stage check also the crankshaft axial play. The front bearing can be changed from the front without further disassembling (just remove the chain sprocket) in case of wear. 

 

If after all that the noise is still present, I would dismount the heads to check valves and guides for wear. This is very common on the V11 engines and the only weak point. 

[Tinus89]

Since the sump is already dismounted, you could further dismount the oil filter assembly (just 4 screws) and then drop the rod big end screws to inspect the plain bearings. Reassembling is no problem as the screws must not be replaced, Just to be sure about that.... Torque is around 65 Nm if I remember that well. 

 

My next step would be to inspect the cam shaft axial bearing as Phil an others mentioned. Whith the Stucchi tensioner you can unscrew that small 8 mm nut and remove the tensioner with the chain and wheels in place. At this stage check also the crankshaft axial play. The front bearing can be changed from the front without further disassembling (just remove the chain sprocket) in case of wear. 

 

If after all that the noise is still present, I would dismount the heads to check valves and guides for wear. This is very common on the V11 engines and the only weak point. 

 

Nope, it isn't.

I don't have the luxury of a dust-free workshop (on the contrary), so I have to drop the sump, check what I want to check, and re-assemble the sump.

I'll have to find a day to do all these checks, but that will take a while because I'm re-constructing the house (myself) the coming weeks...

[emry]

Clutch? The Mandello does use the now infamous single plate.

[Tinus89]

Clutch? The Mandello does use the now infamous single plate.

 

Which has been replaced by a dual plate clutch  . It's kind of special: the V11 flywheel was unavailable  , so an aftermarktet Centauro flywheel was installed with the starter gear of a Le Mans and the dual clutch plates (+intermediate plate/springs etc.) of a V11. I'm not afraid of some wrenching .

The sound also clearly originates from (the top of) the engine and does not change with the clutch engaged/disengaged.

[Chuck]

Hmm, how about a broken spring on the rocker shaft? 

[Tinus89]

Hmm, how about a broken spring on the rocker shaft? 

 

Checked, all fine. Also no play on the rocker/shaft combination and the pushrods are also in good condition.

[JBBenson]

Looking at the video again, that noise isn't normal......maybe it's time to revisit some of the work you did:

 

Perhaps the valve/rocker adjusters have worked themselves loose?

 

Maybe they were set to the wrong spec when you did them?

 

Maybe the timing chain tensioner etc. was installed improperly?

 

Not doubting your ability, but maybe the obvious answer is the right one after all?

 

I have, a few times, installed things backwards or wrong, or left a bolt loose, and only caught it later when it didn't work, or made horrible noises.

 

Just saying.

[Tinus89]

Looking at the video again, that noise isn't normal......maybe it's time to revisit some of the work you did:

 

Perhaps the valve/rocker adjusters have worked themselves loose?

 

Maybe they were set to the wrong spec when you did them?

 

Maybe the timing chain tensioner etc. was installed improperly?

 

Not doubting your ability, but maybe the obvious answer is the right one after all?

 

I have, a few times, installed things backwards or wrong, or left a bolt loose, and only caught it later when it didn't work, or made horrible noises.

 

Just saying.

 

I understand where you are coming from and although I'm a precise wrencher, I am not too experienced and have made mistakes in the past. I am confident this is not the case though, because:

The rattle started BEFORE I did anything to the bike. It slowly developed, first only being there on a hot bike, then also when cold. It was only when it got worse that I started with valve clearances, cam chain etc.

Therefore I'm confident it is not caused by something I did wrong, as I did nothing to the engine before it started to manifest...

[Tinus89]

Hey all,

 

 

So, after rebuilding my kitchen and doing some other stuff in the new house (such as making a proper workshop), I decided to give some love to the V11 again. The workbench:

 

 

 

Yes, with a V11 engine! What did I do so far? I took the gearbox off and visually inspected the special clutch: fine.

I took the front cover off and inspected that for signs of chain contact: none. Chain and new Stucci tensioner are in mint condition. Spun it around a few times, runs great. But.... am I allowed ANY play in the crankshaft and camshaft? Because so far I discovered I do have some play in the crankshaft... Could that cause the noise?

 

The intent is to keep this thread alive the coming days/weeks. I'll be working on the engine in the evenings and for sure need your help:)