V11 Sport with strange metallic rattle

[Tinus89]

Hey all,

 

 

Finally found some time to tinker on! Further findings:

 

- Found some non-magnetic debris underneath the valve covers.

- Quite some axial play in the camshaft. Is this allowed at all?

- Quite some radial play in the oil pump bearing (and the bearing came out halfway when taking off the sprocket). No axial play. Is this allowed?

- Camshaft, tappets and rods look good. Two rockers show quite some wear, see pics.

- On the exhaust valve side, the rockers have worn quite deeply into the rocker support.

 

When I run the chain on the sprockets, it "sticks" to the sprocket quite severely, is that normal? The crank and oilpump sprockets are in good nick, but I'm somewhat worried about the camshaft sprocket.

 

 

What do you guys think? Images are clickable for large. I really need some opinions!

 

 

Debris found.

Some wear on the rocker shaft (this one is the worst). What do you think?

 

Most badly worn rocker arm

 

Worn-in rocker support
 

 

Other worst rocker arm.

Camshaft sprocket




 

[Chuck]

 

- Found some non-magnetic debris underneath the valve covers.

I'm guessing carbon.

 

Some wear on the rocker shaft (this one is the worst). What do you think?

Not unusual. It helps to rotate them each time you adjust the valves. Have you miked it to see how much wear there is?

 

Worn-in rocker support

 

Hard to see in a picture. Again, you need to measure how much it is worn. Shirley, there are tolerances in the shop manual? I haven't looked..

Cam bearing looks rough to me. You need to measure it.

 

When I run the chain on the sprockets, it "sticks" to the sprocket quite severely, is that normal?

I've never seen that, so I'd say no.

 

Quite some axial play in the camshaft. Is this allowed at all?

Yes. There is a fair amount, and I've never seen a spec for it.

Quite some radial play in the oil pump bearing (and the bearing came out halfway when taking off the sprocket). No axial play. Is this allowed?

 

No, there shouldn't be any radial play at all. It's supported by two caged needle bearings.

Have you looked at the rod and main bearings?

[Tinus89]

Hey,

 

 

Thanks for responding! On the backlash/axial play in the camshaft: there seems to be a different opinion two pages back... Also, the manual states maximum backlash is 0,025÷0,066mm, which I'm over by about 1mm

The manual does not give any tolerances for rocker support (rockers are held in place by springs anyway) and rocker arm wear... So how do I know what's acceptable? I'll probably have to go and ask a specialist, won't I?

The bearings on the oil pump I'll have to replace (if you can?), that's clear. Radial play is somewhere between 0.5 and 1mm.

What do you mean with rod and main bearings? Big-end bearings? If so, no, not yet.

[Chuck]

 

What do you mean with rod and main bearings? Big-end bearings? If so, no, not yet.

Rod to crank. (easy) Crank to case. (not so easy) To me, without actually looking/measuring, maybe the oil pump is toast, and has been for a while. I *think* you are looking at a complete overhaul, though.

[Tinus89]

Hey,

 

Ah, so I did understand correct:). No, I did not get to that yet! 

The oil pump bearings might be toast, but the oil pump itself I cannot imagine. I measured oil pressure, which (half warm engine) spiked to 5bar immediately on tickover... I can't imagine the pump being toast when it still delivers 5bar...

 

Do you really think I'm looking at a complete overhaul? Any other experienced Guzzisti that would like to respond? Not that I don't trust you Chuck, but it just surprises me with a 34k km mileage. I don't have the experience to say anything about this...

[Lucky Phil]

Hey,

 

 

Thanks for responding! On the backlash/axial play in the camshaft: there seems to be a different opinion two pages back... Also, the manual states maximum backlash is 0,025÷0,066mm, which I'm over by about 1mm

The manual does not give any tolerances for rocker support (rockers are held in place by springs anyway) and rocker arm wear... So how do I know what's acceptable? I'll probably have to go and ask a specialist, won't I?

The bearings on the oil pump I'll have to replace (if you can?), that's clear. Radial play is somewhere between 0.5 and 1mm.

What do you mean with rod and main bearings? Big-end bearings? If so, no, not yet.

The axial play in the camshaft will be a worn bronze retainer plate. The axial play is controlled by the gap between the back of the drive gear face and the front face of the retainer plate. If the front face of the retainer plate has any sort of small edge to it its worn.  Get the updated version with the oil slots.

Oil pump radial play? radial play as measured by moving the shaft radially while holding it perpendicular to the housing or radial play by moving the end of the shaft up/down side to side etc? I would call the latter shaft wobble and if measured at the end of the shaft will be many times greater than the actual radial play in the bearing. You can measure big end clearance by the wobble method and a formular as well.   

Ciao

[Chuck]

Hey,

 

Ah, so I did understand correct:). No, I did not get to that yet! 

The oil pump bearings might be toast, but the oil pump itself I cannot imagine. I measured oil pressure, which (half warm engine) spiked to 5bar immediately on tickover... I can't imagine the pump being toast when it still delivers 5bar...

 

Do you really think I'm looking at a complete overhaul? Any other experienced Guzzisti that would like to respond? Not that I don't trust you Chuck, but it just surprises me with a 34k km mileage. I don't have the experience to say anything about this...

To me, it seems as if there is abnormal wear for a low mileage engine. I was only guessing oil pump, especially when you said it had a lot of radial play. 5 bar should be *plenty* of oil pressure.

*something* has gone through the bearings, though..

 

I'd look and measure pretty carefully before just putting it together.

[Tinus89]

Oil pump radial play? radial play as measured by moving the shaft radially while holding it perpendicular to the housing or radial play by moving the end of the shaft up/down side to side etc? I would call the latter shaft wobble and if measured at the end of the shaft will be many times greater than the actual radial play in the bearing. You can measure big end clearance by the wobble method and a formular as well.   

Ciao

 

 

In that case it is shaft wobble, but do you really think almost one mm of shaft wobble is OK? Because that causes misalignment of the oil pump sprocket as well...

 

 

 

To me, it seems as if there is abnormal wear for a low mileage engine. I was only guessing oil pump, especially when you said it had a lot of radial play. 5 bar should be *plenty* of oil pressure.

*something* has gone through the bearings, though..

 

 

I'd look and measure pretty carefully before just putting it together.

 

 

Well, in that sense: I have maybe not painted the FULL picture: when I replaced the chain and tensioner, I inspected the chain. One of the bushings around the chain pins was broken halfway, part of which was missing. I never found the part again, but that might have disintegrated and gone through the engine...

I still have the old chain and will take a picture tonight and put it here, so you know what I am talking about.

 

But then again: when I don't have any radial play of that bearing (or shaft wobble, as Phil describes), it can't be too bad, can it? 

I mean, I can get it measured to the tolerances in the shop manual, but those are for a new engine. Being out of those tolerances would indicate wear of course, but how much is acceptable?

 

 

Edit: Just disassembled the complete rest. Found in good shape:

- Cilinders, pistons, pens. (including piston rings, so that is not the source of the sound). Interesting remark: the cilinders had been marked (R/L) so have been taken off before...

- Main bearing front (rear I could not disassemble as I don't have the special clutch tool, but I expect in the same state. No play whatsoever).

- Heads/valves.

 

In less good shape are my rod bearing scales:

 

 

And also the crankshaft: (pictures look worse then in real life though) [images are clickable for large!]

 

 

 

Interestingly, because I still had the old chain, I just had another checkup of that, in a good light, and then.... I found this:

 

 

Also, my oil pump sprocket has a groove on the inside, and so does my oil pump housing on the outside... Something has been in between those...

 

Please, what's your advise? I could really use some... I did not expect it in great shape, but in better shape than this...

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Tinus89

[Lucky Phil]

Whats the history of this engine? It looks like its run a big end at some point and been rebuilt with new shells and no work on the crank pin. I know the images alway look worse than real but the shells look semi ok, I mean I've seen far worse, down to the copper etc. ( I wouldnt re use them) but there is interesting marks on the pin which dont seem like normal wear. Is the pin round? any ovality? 

The pump I'd say is toast, I just measured up my Daytona pump ( which I would be happy to reuse even though they have a bad rep) and it has a shaft to body clearance of 0.003" and a wobble at the end of about 0.004". Bearing in mind the V11 pump has a rolling element bearing it seems too much in your case.

New pumps aren't super expensive, better to be safe.

 

Ciao 

[Chuck]

I'll bet your mains are as bad as the rod bearings. As I mentioned at the start, "something" has gone through the engine. The crank "may" polish out, but without standing there, measuring tools in hand..it's hard to say. You're there. Pull the crank and start measuring. If you can't, take it to a machine shop. If you aren't fairly well versed in engine building, you won't know what is bad and what is not. Sorry, but that's the best advice I can give you, and certainly no offense intended.

[Tinus89]

Whats the history of this engine? It looks like its run a big end at some point and been rebuilt with new shells and no work on the crank pin. I know the images alway look worse than real but the shells look semi ok, I mean I've seen far worse, down to the copper etc. ( I wouldnt re use them) but there is interesting marks on the pin which dont seem like normal wear. Is the pin round? any ovality? 

The pump I'd say is toast, I just measured up my Daytona pump ( which I would be happy to reuse even though they have a bad rep) and it has a shaft to body clearance of 0.003" and a wobble at the end of about 0.004". Bearing in mind the V11 pump has a rolling element bearing it seems too much in your case.

New pumps aren't super expensive, better to be safe.

 

Ciao 

 

The history of the engine is unknown to me unfortunately. For this reason, I do not thrust the shop that sold it to me anymore because of this, as they also mentioned it never had any issues (but by the way, both cilinders and the oil pump have been off? That's strange...)

I did not measure the crank yet, I don't have that specific measuring equipment. But will get that done indeed.

I've already decided I will replace the oil pump bearings. The shafts and gears are really fine and I thrust this pump with new bearings.

 

I'll bet your mains are as bad as the rod bearings. As I mentioned at the start, "something" has gone through the engine. The crank "may" polish out, but without standing there, measuring tools in hand..it's hard to say. You're there. Pull the crank and start measuring. If you can't, take it to a machine shop. If you aren't fairly well versed in engine building, you won't know what is bad and what is not. Sorry, but that's the best advice I can give you, and certainly no offense intended.

 

That's the thing, the mains really are fine. I checked them visually (excellent condition, no grooves) and for play (none existent). 

The only source of something going through the engine I could find was the missing piece of chain. But how does that bypass the oil filter and get into the HP oil system?

 

 

Indeed, I am a good engineer and have some experience in working on engines, but have never fully dismantled one. I simply don't have the experience to determine what is bad and what is acceptable.

As I don't thrust the shop I bought it from, I am looking for other experienced engine overhaulers in the neighborhood for some advise, as I've come to realize pictures are worthless.

[Chuck]

 

That's the thing, the mains really are fine. I checked them visually (excellent condition, no grooves) and for play (none existent).

I thought you said you didn't have the crankshaft out of the engine?

[Lucky Phil]

Nothing needs to have "been through the engine" to cause an issue, it may have been oil starvation. Having said that the big end shells do look to have some signs of particle contamination in them, maybe from poor assembly. A 25-50mm micrometer to measure the crank pin is cheap as chips, get one off ebay and measure up the pin. Plastigauge is also cheap as chips and an acceptable way to measure big end clearance without the need for a set bore gauges, which are also fairly cheap BTW.

Also look at the internal faces of the oil pump housing where the gear teeth tips run for grooving and scoring. If the pump bearings are really bad its probably worn the housing as well.

How deep is that radial groove in the front cam journal in line with the oil gallery? That journal isnt terribley critical clearance wise.   

Ciao

[pete roper]

My guess is loss of oil pressure for the usual reason with the 'Broad Sump'! Phil's suspicion it's just been re-shelled makes sense.both Chuck and Phil are as smart as very smart things. Listen to them.

 

Pete

[Tinus89]

Hey all,

 

Sorry my discussion has been mistaken for not listening! I value your opinions really!

 

I took the engine to a (Ducati) racing shop yesterday and took the crank out. In his opinion, it wasn't too bad, but he did advise to polish the crank (which I decided he could do) as the engine was in bits anyway.

The crank is out and both main bearings really are fine.

He was also not worried about the cam journal. The groove that is visible around the oil supply hole, is actually not really a groove, but a part with no wear (as the oil slot on the cam runs there).

 

The oil pump does not have any visible wear on the inside at all, only the block itself has some grooves, but not too bad in my (and the racing guy's) opinion. Indeed it seems like all has been out once already, possibly due to an oil problem.

I'm thinking about installing a Roper plate while I'm at it, if I can get one in the Netherlands.