V11 Sport with strange metallic rattle

[gelos]

Earlier, you said that the noise goes with clutch pull away. My V11 and some others of our group make similar noise from the gearbox.

[Tinus89]

Earlier, you said that the noise goes with clutch pull away. My V11 and some others of our group make similar noise from the gearbox.

 

I can't remember me saying so?

The sound clearly originates from the top of the engine, not from the gearbox...

[Lucky Phil]

 

It does vary with throttle, as you can hear in the second video as well, frequency increases with revs and slowly dissipates at higher revs.

 

 

Yes, but what I meant was when there is a load on the engine while riding, does the sound change depending on how much or little throttle is applied. The idea is to change throttle position, keeping rpm steady. It's easier in higher gears because playing with the throttle won't change the rpm as quickly, or you can drag the rear brake a bit. You can't really do this in neutral very well.

 

If the sound changes with varying amounts of load on the engine, it tends to indicate the noise is piston/wristpin/big end/mains etc. Something from the piston down. Usually valvetrain and timing chain noises can change with rpm but not just from varying throttle position while rpm stays the same.

 

Did that make any sense?

 

Makes perfect sense. However, as you can hear on the "revving" video, the sound is hard to hear at 2000rpm and impossible at 3000. Well, I don't know if you can roll along under load on your V11 at 2000rpm, but I can't without creating all kinds of other noises (rattles on the bike, in the drivetrain etc).

 

A rattle when you let off throttle is generally rod bearings. A main bearing normally is a low pitched thump, especially at startup before oil pressure builds. How fast oil pressure bleeds off after shutdown is a good indication of bearing condition, but it (naturally) requires an oil pressure gauge.

I'm not hearing any of those sounds in the video. Possibly you are hearing the rocker arms going from side to side? There is a mod to put a thrust bearing on the rocker arm shaft to stop that.

I'm still having a problem being concerned about what I'm hearing. Maybe I need better hearing aids?

FWIW, I chased a noise in a Strada for months. Tore it down twice, balanced the entire rotating assembly. Eventually found it was a crash bar doing it.

 

It does not rattle more when I close the throttle.

Before replacing the main bearing, the oil pressure was measured with a semi-warm engine: 4,5bar straight after tickover. After that I even replaced the main bearing, causing it only to get better...

I'm not worried about oil pressure issues at all. The only things I can really think of are still an issue with the timing chain/tensioner (is that possible when new?), but for me it sounds too loud and metallic for that.

Therefore... valve train.

 

The rocker arms moving side to side is of course something I can check relatively easily (run her with the valve covers off).

Some questions:

 

- Should the rocker arms even come off the "lower" side (against the spring) or stay firmly into place?

- Could a worn valve stem cause a sound like this?

- Could a loose valve seat cause a sound like this?

Without trying to be a @#$$#! about this you've spent more time posting about this than pulling the heads and checking for guide wear and guide looseness in the head.

If you want closure pull and strip the heads, it's a Saturday afternoon job over a few beers, then you'll know:)

 

Ciao

[Chuck]

Gotta agree. It's no big deal to pull the heads on a Guzzi.

[Tinus89]

You're not being an @#$$#! about it at all Phil. I don't have the wrenching experience to guesstimate whether this is a sound that could originate in the heads or not, nor do I have the tools to remove the valves.

I really don't mind working on the bike (matter of fact I like to) and last winter I already rebuild the entire engine (except for the heads that is), costing me ~1000 euros in parts+labour (labour on the crankshaft).

 

Before I do anything, I just want to make sure I know what I am looking for  . Also, time spent on here is mostly my bosses' time, not mine  

Could it be a loose valve seat and if so, should that be visible? Should I heat up the head a bit to check if it's loose? The sound starts after warming up 2-3min.

[stewgnu]

Bet it's the horn rattlin against the frame...

8D

[Chuck]

^^^^ let me digress. I had a barn find Strada at one time that drove me crazy looking for a noise at about 2200 rpm. I even replaced the plastic caged transmission bearings on Pete's advice.. he said while you are there, might as well do it.  I tore it down twice. (!) Eventually balanced the whole rotating assembly. Still there. Eventually found out it was a crash bar that had been tweeked in a garage fall down, and was acting like a tuning fork. (!!) Only took a year to find that one. 

Just the other day, I felt a vibration in the AeroLario foot pegs. Thought, "Uh oh.. probably a u joint. I'm working it harder than it was designed."  Ordered a new cross at 20 some bucks. A new driveshaft assembly is over $300. Eeeks!

Put it on the lift to start getting ready to remove the driveshaft. Pulled off the chin fairing, and it showed signs of rubbing on the bottom of the oil pan. The light bulb came on..  The chin fairing was transmitting vibration to the fairing mount.. to the frame right in front of the foot pegs..

The point of all this? Stewgnu may just be right. 

[swooshdave]

Ya'll need to ride a British bike for a while. Then when you get on what you think is a buzzy Guzzi you'll be like, "What vibration/noise?"

[footgoose]

Bet it's the horn rattlin against the frame...

8D

 

we've come full circle. I posted this suggestion 1 year ago

 

my "other" strange rattle, was my head pipe intermittently hitting the sump

[docc]

Since we're on page twelve, I can't remember if anyone has suggested localizing the noise using a stethoscope (commonly available) as well as the "screwdriver method": using a long screwdriver, place the butt of the handle as to press the 'tragos" of the ear (the small cartilaginous flap) over the ear canal and placing the screwdriver tip at various points on the machine to find where the noise is most prominent.

[Chuck]

Since we're on page twelve, I can't remember if anyone has suggested localizing the noise using a stethoscope (commonly available) as well as the "screwdriver method": using a long screwdriver, place the butt of the handle as to press the 'tragos" of the ear (the small cartilaginous flap) over the ear canal and placing the screwdriver tip at various points on the machine to find where the noise is most prominent.

Didn't work for me on the Strada.   Sounded the same, no matter where I put it. I should have realized it was an external source.. but was too stupid to make that connection. 

[docc]

 

Since we're on page twelve, I can't remember if anyone has suggested localizing the noise using a stethoscope (commonly available) as well as the "screwdriver method": using a long screwdriver, place the butt of the handle as to press the 'tragos" of the ear (the small cartilaginous flap) over the ear canal and placing the screwdriver tip at various points on the machine to find where the noise is most prominent.

Didn't work for me on the Strada.   Sounded the same, no matter where I put it. I should have realized it was an external source.. but was too stupid to make that connection. 

 

So, maybe if it sounds like it's "everywhere", it is external . . .

[Chuck]

That is what I found.. 

[Lucky Phil]

You're not being an @#$$#! about it at all Phil. I don't have the wrenching experience to guesstimate whether this is a sound that could originate in the heads or not, nor do I have the tools to remove the valves.

I really don't mind working on the bike (matter of fact I like to) and last winter I already rebuild the entire engine (except for the heads that is), costing me ~1000 euros in parts+labour (labour on the crankshaft).

 

Before I do anything, I just want to make sure I know what I am looking for  . Also, time spent on here is mostly my bosses' time, not mine  

Could it be a loose valve seat and if so, should that be visible? Should I heat up the head a bit to check if it's loose? The sound starts after warming up 2-3min.

I can't imagine it would be a loose valve seat, Guzzies aren't prone to them. If however one was loose it should show up in wildly varying valve clearances on the affected valve. So if you check the clearances cold and put it through a couple of heat cycles checking the clearances after each one and if the clearances are consistent then it won't be a seat.

The theory being if the seat is moving around in the head when it's hot it should grab it again when cold. You wouldn't expect a loose seat to return to the fully seated position in the head every time when it cooled down.

But like the others guys mentioned check all the chassis stuff first and the standard exhaust cross over as well if one is still fitted.

Harmonics is weird stuff indeed.

 

Ciao

[pete roper]

If a seat comes loose it will drop quickly, it will then jam between the valve and the head, the piston will then hit the valve and shatter it leading to carnage that has to be seen to be believed.

 

I've seen it.

 

Having just trawled through this thread's last six or so pages all I can suggest is a last nut and bolt strip and inspect and a full 'Zero Time' on the engine. So much has been done to it piecemeal there is no way it can be known to be right unless it is ALL done right.

 

When the crank was out were the rods closed and ground or just bunged back in with new shells? If they weren't then there is one huge glaring failure right there. And what about the little ends? Anybody check them for out of round or ovalisation? Has the oil pump been removed and inspected/measured? Mention has been made of the cam chain being reluctant to disengage from the cam sprocket but nobody suggested replacing it!

 

Look, I'm not being critical, everyone is trying to help, but with typical Red Suspender frugality the attempts to *Save Money and Effort* have simply resulted in an twelve page ongoing testament to failure.

 

Start again. Buy some good measuring tools and DO IT RIGHT,

 

Pete