Electric Start

[cash1000]

Hi

At the Talley Rappit rally 2 weekends ago (New Zealands annual Moto Guzzi rally) I had a problem with my V11. It wouldn't start. With help I was able to push start it and it ran ok but still wouldn't start using the electric start. When you pushed the electric start button all you got was a click from the starter motor area. I also noticed when I started it that morning that the oil and ignition lights weren't working so may be ignition switch? But I cleaned that 4 months ago and I don't ride in dusty conditions. With help from others push starting the bike I was able to get home. Luckly I had a spare key on me so could fuel up without turning bike off. Last weekend I started to try and trace the problem. From Dangerous's post earlier this year I first checked the starter motor had wires connected which they were. With a fully charged battery (12.5V) result still no go (Its a motobat Battery about 4 years ago and sits on a trickle charger). Can you check the batteries condition with a battery hydrometer or are they sealed? I've cleaned earth strap on gearbox (it was clean). Relays are new about 2000ks ago. I swapped them around and tried old ones with no success. I connected a wire on relay 1 connecting 30 & 87 still only get a click. There is 12.5 volts on terminal 30. Measured voltage on starter motor while pushing start button. its about 5 volts. Is that correct? Talking to mechanic next to work who likes his bikes he thought it was starter motor brushes or solenoid. What do you guys think problem is? I'm not that great with electricial stuff so keep suggestions simple. Bike is a 2001 V11 Sport Rosso Mandello 42,000k's.

[MartyNZ]

Hi Nigel,

Could it be magnets coming loose inside your starter, jamming the armature?

See this post, including advice on fixing it.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19296&hl=magnets&do=findComment&comment=208196

Marty

[Chuck]

 

 

Measured voltage on starter motor while pushing start button. its about 5 volts. Is that correct? 

No, should be above 10. Probably a dead battery.

[fotoguzzi]

all battery tenders are not equal.. if it's sat on trickle for 4 years , suspicious.. get a load test but I don't think the bike would run right at all if battery shot.

more likely the magnets in starter have come unglued.. I hear they can be repaired.

[docc]

12.5 volts is 50% for an AGM.

 

This post shows good voltages:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19672&p=214436

 

And, agreed, that trickle chargers may not be correct fr the AGM. Float voltage must be above 13.5 and the battery should never be allowed to go below 12.65v before charging.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Which terminal on the starter did you see 5 Volts, on the spade connector that's "Startus Interuptus", on the large terminal that's too low which could be a number of things.
Loose pole magnets as fotoguzzi mentioned although I don't think it will pull the battery low.

Bad battery, it shouldn't be left on a battery charger, some tenders are ok but I prefer not to use one unless the bike has been sitting for a couple of months then just overnight, 4 years is not too bad.

 

With the bike in neutral take a length of wire and run it from the solenoid spade connector and touch on the battery, this test eliminates the possibility of a wiring fault, if the motor spins it points to the solenoid wiring "Startus Interuptus"

 

Get the battery tested, it should have at least 150 CCA

 

Charge the battery then connect your multimeter right to the posts that stick out (not the lugs bolted on), what Voltage do you see there while trying to crank? It should hold at least 10 Volts.

If it stays high while trying to start but still no crank move your meter to measure from the negative post (not lug) to chassis, checking the ground connection.

 

 

So how was the rally this year, can you post some pictures?
 

[Lucky Phil]

 Luckly I had a spare key on me so could fuel up without turning bike off.

 Fueling with the engine running!!!! not only a risk to yourself but everybody else using the petrol station. Lucky the station attendant didn't catch you, he would have had kittens.

 

Ciao    

[MartyNZ]

 

Luckly I had a spare key on me so could fuel up without turning bike off.

Fueling with the engine running!!!! not only a risk to yourself but everybody else using the petrol station. Lucky the station attendant didn't catch you, he would have had kittens.

I'm sure that Nigel was following all the procedures for "Hot Refueling" after completing a hazard reduction risk assessment, and was wearing OSH approved PPE.

[docc]

If the battery has indeed gone flat (and it looks like it has) it may be recoverable.

 

See the ( lengthy ) thread:

 

Odyssey PC545 Battery conditioning

 

As well as this official Odyssey procedure to recover a deeply discharged AGM Odyssey battery:

 

http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents/ProceduretorecoverdeeplydischargedODYSSEY.pdf

[Lucky Phil]

 

 

Luckly I had a spare key on me so could fuel up without turning bike off.

Fueling with the engine running!!!! not only a risk to yourself but everybody else using the petrol station. Lucky the station attendant didn't catch you, he would have had kittens.

I'm sure that Nigel was following all the procedures for "Hot Refueling" after completing a hazard reduction risk assessment, and was wearing OSH approved PPE.

 

Ha, PPE like the suit those bomb disposal guys wear

 

Ciao 

[cash1000]

Thanks guys for the help. Will work on it tonight and report back. Had battery tested by local mechanic. He said its ok. Doubtful. Getting it load tested at bike shop tomorrow. They have a new one in stock if old one dead.

What does "startus interuptus' refer to?

Does my motorbike gear count as PPE? Service station was unmanned.

Kiwi_Roy yes I will post rally photos. Organisers doing a write up. I will see if they will post that to. There are some good photos of GOD. Next years rally in Canterbury region.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Startus Interuptus (I don't know who came up with the name)- the inability to get it up  IN

 

If there is not enough current through the starter solenoid coils(2) it refuses to budge and all you get is the click from the relay.

This inability strikes Guzzis of all ages, I am working with a V7 owner at the moment Norges, Brevas and Grisos are falling like flies

 

In the ideal world when you press start 45 to 50 Amps should rush into the solenoid but because of the crazy wiring through the ignition switch you are lucky to get 30

The high current pulse only lasts for 20 to 40 milliseconds while the solenoid plunger is in motion then it drops to about 10 Amps.

 

You can usually get some partial relief by cleaning the ignition switch, the old grease goes hard and holds the contacts apart, fresh Vaseline revives it for a while.

The permanent cure is to provide a direct feed from the battery through a 20 Amp fuse direct to the Start relay, it's quite an easy fix for most bikes but gets a bit trickier where the

start relay turns off the headlight while cranking.

 

Really I would be surprised to hear that the ignition switch is rated for 40 Amps, whereas the relays made by Omron are rated for 100 Amps inrush.

Even if you were to remove the switch I think there's enough extra wire to and fro to limit the current.

 

I did a test on my EV, I cleaned up the switch and measured the time it took from pressing the button until the starter started spinning, about 40 milliseconds

Then I did the Startus Interuptus bypass, the current onl went up about 5 amps but the time dropped in half to 20 milliseconds

You may ask why the 15 Amp fuse doesn't blow with such a high current, the pulse is so short it doesn't have time to heat up.

[gstallons]

I have repaired problems like this by using the start wire @ the starter to energize a relay to operate the starter solenoid wire. A little work but it is worth the effort .

[cash1000]

Ok got battery load tested. Shop said it was ok. They didn't suggest buying a new one.

Connected wire between spade connector & battery. Still just get a click when trying to start.

But battery on minder last night (CTEX XS 0.8). It has a 6 stage process and it only got to stage 5. Stage 6 is maintenance charging.

Battery 13.1v. When trying to crank 6.0.

Is thinking still that battery need replacing or starter motor at fault or both? Can I connect up another battery and try starting. Say a car battery?

If starter motor what am I looking for to be wrong or do I get it checked out by a specialist?

[Chuck]

A little history. 

 

 

Startus Interuptus (I don't know who came up with the name)- the inability to get it up  IN

That term was coined by Todd Haven (RIP) of MPH cycles. At that time, they sold a plug and play kit to plug into your Guzzi to cure the problem. 

 

 

Battery 13.1v. When trying to crank 6.0.

I still say, "She's dead, Jim."  I would at least try a known good battery.