Zinc additive, ZDDP pros/cons?

[LowRyter]

I dunno GM.  I was only ass-uming that more was better.  You might be right.  

 

Anyway, for all me screw ups, it looks like oil isn't one of them.  

[JesterGrin_1]

 

 

 

 I would avoid full synthetics in any air cooled engine.

 

Why? They are *much* better when hot. No contest.

 

Ok not counting Air Craft lol.But for an Air Cooled Engine on the ground I would avoid full synthetics.

 

Everybody is intitled to be completely wrong I guess, and I respect your right to be so.

 

Ciao  

 

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=26_575

[LowRyter]

oh my Jester....  you're site makes the point that synth oil runs cooler because it doesn't absorb heat from the engine?  therefore, not recommended for air cooled engines (like VW)?

 

Oh  OK.   Well, I am sure that will be met with lots of comments.

 

 

[docc]

oh my Jester....  you're site makes the point that synth oil runs cooler because it doesn't absorb heat from the engine?  therefore, not recommended for air cooled engines (like VW)?

 

Oh  OK.   Well, I am sure that will be met with lots of comments.

 

 

Where I live, I've got til about March to learn as much as I can about oil and tires . . .

 

The heat transfer observation is interesting stuff, but not sure how I can "test" it effectively. I think we (might) agree that an engine can run too cool as well as too hot.

[JRD]

You can sure tell its winter when the conversation turns to oils and tires!  Interestingly over on one of the British bike forums the guys are having the same conversation.  One in particular is discussing oil flow rate and its ability to absorb/dissipate heat.

 

Back when I was into racing cars we would remove the thermostat. In its place we would install a "restrictor plate" which had a smaller opening thus slowing down the coolant flow rate and allow it to absorb/transfer more of the engine heat before traveling thru the radiator.  We always tried to maintain an engine temperature of 190F.  Nowadays my truck runs a constant 200-210F!

[Lucky Phil]

 

 

 

 

 I would avoid full synthetics in any air cooled engine.

 

Why? They are *much* better when hot. No contest.

 

Ok not counting Air Craft lol.But for an Air Cooled Engine on the ground I would avoid full synthetics.

 

Everybody is intitled to be completely wrong I guess, and I respect your right to be so.

 

Ciao  

 

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=26_575

 

This is the common issue with taking one small piece of scetchy info totally devoid of detail and making a blanket statement covering all groups ( IE "air cooled engines") 

I think everybody with any real knowlege of full synthetic oils these days would agree that they are far superior in every aspect of performance, hot or cold.

So here we have some observations with no detail on how the testing was conducted and what types and weighs of oils were compaired and under what conditions. But lets assume that the only thing of real concern in this particular application was the cylinder head temps were higher. How much higher? enough to be an issue? And if indeed you did need them to be lower then the probably cause in this particular case would be that the superior flow rate of the full synthetic meant it stayed less time in the head to pick up the heat. Assuming all this info is correct FOR THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION and bearing in mind that full synthetics are far superior to mineral oils at dealing with heat what would I do?

I would run drain restrictors in the heads to allow more dwell time for the synthetic oil to absorb the heat and make use of its superior ability to tollerate high oil temps.

What I wouldnt do is make a blanket assumption that flys in the face of all available evidence and ignor superior modern technology.

 

Ciao

[docc]

I keep coming back to Richard Widman's work on motor lubricants as it appears very well referenced (33 page .pdf):

http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html

 

I didn't see anything in it specifically on this heat transfer business.

 

It makes me want to BlueTooth the guzziadiag "dashboard" where I could watch head temperature real time. Unfortunately, the V11 does not actually measure oil temperature. That is usually done with a sump stick (kinda hard to see on the fly! )

 

Penrite's .pdf (posted by MartyNZ) about the relationship of ZDDP and leaded fuels is also compelling.

 

I, too, would like it if Gene Berg's observations were better documented/ showed some data.

[Lucky Phil]

I keep coming back to Richard Widman's work on motor lubricants as it appears very well referenced (33 page .pdf):

http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html

 

I didn't see anything in it specifically on this heat transfer business.

 

It makes me want to BlueTooth the guzziadiag "dashboard" where I could watch head temperature real time. Unfortunately, the V11 does not actually measure oil temperature. That is usually done with a sump stick (kinda hard to see on the fly! )

 

Penrite's .pdf (posted by MartyNZ) about the relationship of ZDDP and leaded fuels is also compelling.

 

I, too, would like it if Gene Berg's observations were better documented/ showed some data.

Yes docc I thought the Penrite info was interesting and backed up my research from a few years ago now that around 1000ppm of ZDDP was adequate for a flat tappet engine.

There are always folk that look suspiciously at new technology and search for reasons to stick with what they know to save them from reading, research and analysis and to stay in their comfort zone.

Sometimes you need to tweek the machinery to take advantage of the major benifits of the improved technology.

Measuring CHT insn't hard just a thermocouple under the spark plug and a CHT gauge. Chuck will know all about them from the bug smasher world:) 

 

Ciao 

[mayormenino]

@docc @martynz

Thanks for the great advice and knowledge on the zinc levels and SG rated oil.

 

I initially was introduced to the issue my Mike from Mike Rich Power Sports. After a really great discussion about valve seat issues he mentioned that you should run oil with good zinc levels.

 

With the variety of oils, the confounding ratings, and the lack of transparency of their ingredients I've concluded that "the truth is what works"  

[Lucky Phil]

For those interested a video. Its all quite interesting but take a look at the comparison that starts at 5min 30 second into the vid. I know its extreme temp wise and most of us would change our oil at a lot shorter intervals than the average car person but its a nice demonstration of one of the advantages of a full synth oil.

 

Ciao