Best Relay

[docc]

 Ebay sellers are always a moving target, just as the "NLA" OMRON G8HE has become. Get 'em while you can! (If you can.)

Good news, our member @p6x has pursued his European connections to find a promising Micro-ISO relay alternative with High Current (30/20) ratings and a promising Data Sheet . . . along with availability and no large minimum quantity orders . . .

 

[Speedfrog]

Just received a shipment of Omron G8HE-1C7T-R1-DC12 relays today!

After reading thru all the technical posts re V11 relays problems and learning the scarcity of the most suitable relays for our steeds, I thought I'd do a little search and found these on ebay. They are brand new, NOS I suppose, not cheap at $10 each + tax/shipping out of Michigan and the vendor claims to have hundreds available.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/162517009426?epid=1233534558&hash=item25d6c4c412:g:rN8AAOSwsXFZJuh0

I curently run the G8HN-1C2T-R DC12 that came installed on the bike when I bought it without any problem but I though it would be good to have these on hand in case of failure.

Hope that helps if anyone is looking to stock some of these.

Also know that I was able to bring the shipping charges from $37.50 to $9.20 for 10 relays!!

Cheers!

[audiomick]

I think this is the best place for this. I haven't read the whole thread, so if the answer is in there somewhere, a link would do.

 

I have been trying to find out how the shape and size of the socket for the relay is defined, and by whom. The reason for the search is that I'm a bit interested in finding a source or sources in Europe, better Germany, for an appropriate Relay, i.e. a 5-Pole that I could put in all positions, and maybe also use as a relay for power to the starter motor solenoid. I haven't had a look under the seat yet, but I do know that there is such a thing as a "standard" automobile relay socket.

So the questions:

Is the socket in all possible cases always the same, i.e. standarised?

Which standard does it adhere to, and who defined the standard?

Is the standard one that is the same in severals countries (DIN, EC, ASA, whatever...)?

Does anyone happen to have a link to a document that describes the standardised socket? I've found a couple of sources with nice diagramms including dimensions for everything, but without knowing the dimensions for the socket, that is not very helpful.

[docc]

Looks to be an ISO (International Standards Organization) configuration:

             "micro ISO / plug-in ISO terminal "

If this gets you started, realize the biggest challenge is to verify the rated continuous current for both the NC and NO contacts. Datasheets are, unfortuneately not standardized.

[audiomick]

26 minutes ago, docc said:

If this gets you started,

Thanks, docc. I think it did.

That it is an ISO standard had started to dawn on me. The problem with that is, as with DIN, most sources one can easily find are trying to sell a copy of the standard rather than just explain it.

Anyway, I found this:

https://www.e-hack.de/der-grosse-kfz-relais-ratgeber/#Anschluss_Layouts

The document as a whole seems very useful (for those who can read German... ), and the paragraph that the link leads to seems to me to be the critical point. Having a look under the seat should settle the question whether we're dealing with Type A or Type B.

 

For those who might wish to translate the document, I would recommend trying

https://www.deepl.com/translator

In my experience, that site delivers much more sensible results than that useless google thing.

 

For the record, it looks like the ISO standard is ISO 7588-1:1998-09. That is based on searching and seeing what repeatedly crops up. Might be wrong, though.

[docc]

I see relay "Form" classified A,B, C, D, yet "Type" classified by pole/throw: SPST, SPDT, DPST, DPDT

https://www.electricaltechnology.org/2018/12/what-is-relay-different-types-of-relays-its-operation-applications.html

When searching for a suitable High Current Relay for the V11 application, these two datasheets can be used as standards:

https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8he.pdf   (OMRON G8HE)

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/en/datasheet/a11csq12vdc15r-51176058/   (CIT High Current micro relay)

[audiomick]

Thanks for that.

What I also found, which explains the apparently random numbers on the contacts of the relays, is that that they are defined in a DIN Norm (Deutsche Industrienorm = German industry standard). Here is a listing:

http://www.elektron-bbs.de/verkehr/klemmen.htm

and a Wiki article:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klemmenbezeichnung#Liste_der_Klemmenbezeichnungen_in_Kfz_und_ihrer_Bedeutung

no, wait, I found it in English!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_72552

[docc]

I hope you find that helpful sourcing a German-made High Current micro relay for our application . . .

[Speedfrog]

FWIW, I'll throw this Picker Components data-sheet in the mix.

https://www.pickercomponents.com/pdf/Relays/PC782.pdf

When I was doing my own research on the best available relays for V11S, I came across this Picker Components as one of the highest rated micro relay readily available, the only one with rated max continuous current in its spec sheet.

The PC782-1C-12S-R-X would be the suitable one for our motorbikes:

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/en/picker-components/pc7821c12srx-47154342.html

Edited March 14, 2023 by Speedfrog
Better link to the data sheet in pdf format

[docc]

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/en/datasheet/pc7821a12cdx-56669246/

1 hour ago, Speedfrog said:

FWIW, I'll throw this Picker Components data-sheet in the mix.

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/en/datasheet/pc7821a12cdx-56669246/

When I was doing my own research on the best available relays for V11S, I came across this Picker Components as one of the highest rated micro relay readily available, the only one with rated max continuous current in its spec sheet.

The PC782-1C12S-R-X would be the suitable one for our motorbikes:

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/en/picker-components/pc7821c12srx-47154342.html

Good specs!

That looks like a definite "Best" high Current relay!

Thanks, @Speedfrog!

 

[Speedfrog]

3 minutes ago, docc said:

By "resistive" contact rating, this is synonymous with "continuous" current rating?

That is my understanding!

[docc]

10 minutes ago, Speedfrog said:

That is my understanding!

"Answered" post edited, once again, to keep current sources on High Current relays for V11 applications.

 

[audiomick]

I got a message over a German forum recommending a Hella relay, with the comment that one thing that makes it suitable is the "Bauhöhe", i.e. how high the thing physically is. The Hella is apparently relatively low-profile.

I wont post the specific model until I have had a look at a few spec sheets to see how it compares.

Having said that, the bloke that the information came form is definitely well informed, and an experienced professional Guzzi Mechanic.

He also commented that the relays are "Verschleissteile", i.e. things that wear out during normal usage, and should be renewed as a matter of course every few years.

[docc]

Looking forward to seeing what you find, @audiomick! Thanks for the extra effort. Beyond simply sourcing proper relays, this thread started as, and has remained, a tutorial for those looking to learn and understand the various factors and terminology. Even I can read a data sheet now!

Combining some of things we have learned from informed experts, it occurred to me that there is a place for the sealed relay case on the V11. Not for moisture, necessarily, but in the event silicone "dielectric" grease is used on the relay base contacts. There are good resources that state the vapors are oxidized by nearby switch contacts (like relays) creating silicone dioxide (think of plating your relay contacts with thin layers of glass).  Glass is an extraordinarily good insulator, but electrical contacts thrive on conductivity

Based upon this premise, those who use silicon based dielectric grease on their relay bases should consider sealed relays.

Or simply switch to a petroleum based grease, like @Kiwi_Roy's favorite: Vaseline®, or @Chuck's favorite, Caig DeOxit® (I prefer the "Gold ").

 

The concept @audiomick now presents, that relays are "Verschleissteile" ("wear parts") suggests that they should have a service/replacement interval without waiting for them to fail (always occurs at a bad time).

[audiomick]

A couple of questions have cropped up:

I gather "mini" and "micro" relays use the same socket form. Can anyone confirm that (to save me studying numerous diagramms...)?

 

I notice that some relays have a resistor parallel to the switching coil, and some a diode. Das anyone know what that is good for?