Best Relay

[audiomick]

4 minutes ago, Speedfrog said:

We all know by now the electrical engineeers in Mandello Del Lario had their share of miscalculations...

To give the engineers credit, one never knows, and will probably never find out, what was planned and how different that was from what the "budget engineer" thought would probably suffice. Not always the same thing...

[Speedfrog]

13 minutes ago, audiomick said:

To give the engineers credit, one never knows, and will probably never find out, what was planned and how different that was from what the "budget engineer" thought would probably suffice. Not always the same thing...

Yes, you're right, there is always potential for the bean counters to undercut the engineering dept to a certain point. But I doubt they would have gambled with safety aspects or crucial (expensive) equipment such as an ECU.

One can always be optimistic, but like you said, we'll probably never know.

And one can also be reminded of what happened with the valve train of the early CARC 8V engine... 

[docc]

On 3/16/2023 at 10:50 AM, audiomick said:

Would you care to measure and report the physical dimensions of the original relay, just for interest's sake?

 

If you can manage inches and millimetres, that would be brilliant...

The Siemens relays original to my 2000 V11 Sport measure (mm, oriented as installed in the bike):

14 L x 19 W x 21 H

Compared to all of the cases of seven other relays (with very little variation):

14 L x 22 W x 25 H

Original Siemens, left:

A tale of many relays:

[docc]

Relative to the OMRON G8HE, the Picker Components and the CIT relays, L->R below, have identical construction with the resistor mounted beneath the horizontal coil. The OMRON's vertical coil and resistor mounting certainly look like they would shed heat away from the resistor more effectively:

The Picker Component's 25 amp rated N.C. contacts do look visibly more robust than the CIT (L and R, below):

I'll be running the 25A/30A Picker Component relay in the #1 SPDT position as this is the highest rated N.C. contact I have seen to date. (Early [1999-2001] V11 Sport lean heavily on this relatively weak N.C. contact.)

[Joe]

24 minutes ago, docc said:

Relative to the OMRON G8HE, the Picker Components and the CIT relays, L->R below, have identical construction with the resistor mounted beneath the horizontal coil. It is uncertain whether the OMRON's vertical coil and resistor mounting are any real advantage:

The Picker Component's 25 amp rated N.C. contacts do look visibly more robust than the CIT (L and R, below):

I'll be running the 30A/25A Picker Component relay in the #1 SPDT position as this is the highest rated N.C. contact I have seen to date.

Docc, is the relay on the left wider? If so your going to change out the relay base?

[docc]

On 3/20/2023 at 7:40 PM, Joe said:

Docc, is the relay on the left wider? If so your going to change out the relay base?

The base configurations are all identical (Micro-ISO).

In that last image of the Picker Components PC782-1C-12S-R-X (left, rated 25/30) and the CIT Relay A11CSQ12VDC1.5R (right, rated 20/30) the size and construction of the two relays are visibly identical except for the Normally Closed contacts that look visibly more robust on the Picker Components (rated  25 amps N.C.) on the left:

[audiomick]

Thanks docc.

 

By the way, I had another look at the message from the bloke who gave me some info about relays. He wrote that he changes the relays in his Centauro about every 4 years.

[al_roethlisberger]

Not really relevant, but interesting:

 

https://waterburyelectronic.com/2020/10/cit-relay-switch-acquires-picker-components/

 

 

I had never heard of Picker or CIT relays before this thread BTW    Are they a quality make?

[docc]

On 3/21/2023 at 7:37 AM, al_roethlisberger said:

Not really relevant, but interesting:

 

https://waterburyelectronic.com/2020/10/cit-relay-switch-acquires-picker-components/

 

 

I had never heard of Picker or CIT relays before this thread BTW    Are they a quality make?

CIT looks to check out as a significant relay and switch manufacturer, although these CIT I have do not have a country of manufacture on them. Picker Components, I didn't find anything on. These say "China."

At this point in the Micro-ISO search for a High Current relay (not the typical 20amp/10amp), it is down to evaluating the datasheet looking for things like continuous current ratings and silver alloy contacts. As well as availability and reasonable cost. I am reminded of the idea of choosing Panasonic because of their reputation, but their Micro-ISO relay is only rated 10/20.

The design and materials of these CIT and Picker Components are so identical as to suggest they may be manufactured in the same place with different markings. Again, the 25 amp rated N.C. contact on the Picker does look more substantial (perhaps supporting the 25 amp rating).

Sorry I do not have an oscilloscope or the other methods Ryland3210 used to evaluate the early OMRON and the GEI.

@audiomick, thanks for the feedback on the Centauro rider's service interval. The longest I have run a particular relay is nine years (OMRON 10/20) and only changed then because we found the High Current G8HE.

[audiomick]

8 hours ago, docc said:

...country of manufacture... "China."

Don't get hung up on "China". Remember that, for instance, everything Apple sells is made in China.

Sure, a lot of crap is produced there, but I have also seen some real crap with "made in Germany" written on it. And remember the reputation Japan had in the '70s. I'm pretty sure the expression "Jap crap" would have also in use been in the USA as it was in Australia. Nowadays "Japanese" is taken as an indicator of quality.

 

China is getting more and more proficient at producing quality items. The crux of the matter is, who it is being produced for. If the client demands good quality, China can produce it.

 

I even have a classical guitar, made in China for a German company and fine tuned in Germany, that is amazingly good for the price category.

 

As far as relays go, I'm trying to wade through the specs at Hella and Bosch to see what they can offer. I'm pretty sure one or both of them should have a suitable relay. The only thing is whether the physical size will fit in where it has to go.

[Chuck]

China is fully capable of quality manufacturing. Period. They are also capable of making what ever the customer wants at the price the customer wants, too.

High quality Chinese parts are as expensive as high quality made in USA parts, however. Commie Nick (RIP) worked at manufacturing AN hardware in China, for instance.

[Joe]

I’m a service manager for a company in the elevator industry. Most electrical components like drives, pc boards, soft starts and lastly older design relays are made in China. Parts procurement during the COVID era has been abysmal as provinces have been shut down in the supply chain, aka a China.  So everything is already made in China, even if it’s branded with a western company name. Lastly the prices have almost doubled from pre-covid era. Because of this, we get drives repaired, typically the repair shop has 70 in line on the floor to be repaired, so lead times are 21-23 days before they even look at it. Sorry about the rant, but Chinese parts are the source for electrical parts. 

[audiomick]

I'm still looking, and seem to be throwing up more questions than answers.

There is one Hella relay that keeps cropping up. The current capacity seems ok, but it has a diode rather than a resistor.

 

Can anyone say for sure that this would be acceptable, i.e. a diode rather than a resistor?

[docc]

23 minutes ago, audiomick said:

I'm still looking, and seem to be throwing up more questions than answers.

There is one Hella relay that keeps cropping up. The current capacity seems ok, but it has a diode rather than a resistor.

 

Can anyone say for sure that this would be acceptable, i.e. a diode rather than a resistor?

This statement by @Speedfrog has me staying with the resistor:

"Although very effective, one drawback to using a flyback diode as a voltage surge suppressor in a relay is that it decays the magnetic field of the coil slower than with no diode, taking longer for the relay to open the contacts and allowing arcing and micro-welds to occur between the contacts which could cause the relay to stick overtime when the contacts become welded together. "

[audiomick]

Ok, that's a reason. Wonder how long that takes?

 

What I am thinking of is my acquaintance's advice to change the relays on principal every few years. He stated as one of the reasons, that relays have a much harder time in motorcycles than in cars. More vibration, moisture perhaps. If one is changing them every so often anyway, how significant is a problem that might show up with time.

 

As I wrote, the more I find out, the more questions turn up.