ring & pinion gears

[stewgnu]

Do you have a fairing fitted? I can hunker down on my un-faired v11 and do a steady ton on the motorway but I’d have thought the faired bikes would perhaps be ok at 120??

[68C]

I bought a Norton Commando 750 new in '72. Advertised as 0 to 60 in 4.5secs and top speed of 124mph. They forgot to mention you had to change gearbox sprockets from 19 to 21 tooth to get that top speed and of course then lost the acceleration. Truth in Advertising?

[BLIGHT]

Hi guys,

 

Since were on the topic of ring and pinion gears, I've been riding the 2003 V11 Sport, running perfectly, with now "approximately" 12,000 miles on it.

 

I say 'approximately', because the Veglia ODO was working intermittently when I bought it, so who knows?

 

It indicated ~11,000 miles when I replaced it with the SpeedHut GPS unit, now showing 680 miles, so... about 12K miles total (minimum) I would say.

 

Lately I have noticed a lot of driveline lash that seems to be getting more pronounced...on-off throttle just seems really sloppy in that feeling of transition. I have other shaft drive bikes, and they aren't anything like this.

 

I've been reading all the threads here of driveline maintenance, docc's yoke failure, and rear end adjustments, etc...a lot to read!

 

On one of the threads, a poster said there should be 'zero' lash between the ring gear and the pinion.

 

Fearing my rear drive was failing with this sloppy feeling (it's drip-free, silent and does not run hot) I did a quick test to check for bevel gear lash, and posted a short video:

 

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmTfuaAAK3HM7Rin1mBhG1H0o2Vk

 

In the video I am rotating the yoke back and forth by hand and the clicks are the pinion hitting the ring gear in each direction.

 

The rear yoke is tight on the splined shaft, and is rotating the input shaft to the final drive pinion, although it doesn't look like it in the video.

 

Is this thing about to blow? I plan on parking it until I get some recommendations from you guys!!

 

Also, I'm gonna drain the final drive oil into a clean pan and drag a powerful magnet through it to see what I get.

 

Alarming too is the recommendation in the shop manual to 'replace the driveshaft' every 9000 miles under 'racing or high speed use'... well I do ride it pretty hard when I can... while other times it loafs along in traffic.

 

That replacement recommendation seems ridiculous to me if the universals and splines are lubed regularly (next on my to-do list while she's grounded) I would think a well-maintained drive-shaft and universals should last the life of the bike, no matter how you ride.... short of constantly trying to wheely it or doing burnouts (I do neither!)

 

At this point, the belt-drive on my XR1200 is looking pretty good (they can break too, but it's rare)

 

Any help is most appreciated, and hey, I'll even drink a beer in your honor! 

 

Cheers,

BLIGHT

 

 

[docc]

Lately, I have been so thrilled with the Sport's corner entry and roll on because my previous "play" is virtually gone. Part of it was that I had let the shaft's pinch bolts (front and rear) get loose over time and the other major factor was the loose gearbox input hub that's been on the bike since gearbox warranty replacement in 2003.  What a joy to have that all tightened up!

 

I am uncertain about the acceptable rotational play, but mine does exactly what your video shows (if not more). At the South'nSpineRaid, danl put a dial indicator on several spine frame bikes and measured the radial (side to side/ up and down) play and found most of the bikes at 0.010-0.015". I believe he said his early Sport is 0.025".

 

Another area to check for perceived driveline lash are all the wheel bearings, reardrive bearings and swingarm bearings.  Also, the bushings in the ends of the torque reaction rod.

 

BTW, the reardrive drain plug has a magnet on it. Don't be surprised to find "fuzz." (But no chunks, shards, or flakes! )

[BLIGHT]

Lately, I have been so thrilled with the Sport's corner entry and roll on because my previous "play" is virtually gone. Part of it was that I had let the shaft's pinch bolts (front and rear) get loose over time and the other major factor was the loose gearbox input hub that's been on the bike since gearbox warranty replacement in 2003.  What a joy to have that all tightened up!

 

I am uncertain about the acceptable rotational play, but mine does exactly what your video shows (if not more). At the South'nSpineRaid, danl put a dial indicator on several spine frame bikes and measured the radial (side to side/ up and down) play and found most of the bikes at 0.010-0.015". I believe he said his early Sport is 0.025".

 

Another area to check for perceived driveline lash are all the wheel bearings, reardrive bearings and swingarm bearings.  Also, the bushings in the ends of the torque reaction rod.

 

BTW, the reardrive drain plug has a magnet on it. Don't be surprised to find "fuzz." (But no chunks, shards, or flakes! )

 

Whew! I feel better now. I actually first thought it might be the rubber wheel inserts-cushions possibly disintegrating... I'll check 'em.

 

I looked through the various online 'fiche' I could find, and see the 1100 Sport used spherical rod-ends and tubing for the torque rod.... no rubber?

 

That would really tighten it up I bet! 

 

I raised the rear wheel off the ground, put the bike in gear and rotated the wheel back and forth by hand, stop to stop.

 

Looked to be about 1" (at the tire edge) of total slop in the final drive, driveshaft splines, three transmission shafts, etc.

 

That didn't seem any worse than other bikes I've had, shaft or chain or belt.

 

That's static slop, and would be amplified by partial or full power on, and full closed throttle in lower gears (where you feel it particularly)

 

That torque-reaction rod with the rubber bushings would be amplifying it too for sure under power or decel.

 

I can manage it with the way I ride, but I just wanted to try and tighten it up a little. Glad to hear it's probably not gonna blow or seize!

 

Any way to peek inside to see the ring gear wear pattern without removing and disassembly? I can get a little borescope at Harbor Freight!

 

Final drive gear oil change will be first, and then driveshaft lube... and then just just ride it!

 

Thanks for your opinion and experience!

BLIGHT

[docc]

Yeah, well, getting your advice on the internet from a guy who recently threw his driveshaft is sketchy in the least!

 

You're right, the early Sport 1100 had no rubber cush drive in the rear wheel. I'm pretty sure that appeared on the 1100Sport-i (?)

 

Apparently, the manual language about changing the driveshaft was a "cut and paste" from the Daytona which had no provision for shaft lubrication.

 

At some point, I am going to remove the front half of my (original, 109,000+ mile/176.000+ km) drive shaft and disassemble the U-joint. It is going to be very interesting to see what condition it is in.

 

If your play has changed of late, check all of those rear bearings and the reaction rod bushings.

[BLIGHT]

Will do....Thanks!

[MartyNZ]

....Lately I have noticed a lot of driveline lash that seems to be getting more pronounced...on-off throttle just seems really sloppy in that feeling of transition. I did a quick test to check for bevel gear lash, and posted a short video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmTfuaAAK3HM7Rin1mBhG1H0o2Vk

Cheers, BLIGHT

Hello Blight,

My bike is exactly the same as your video. It is bad enough that riding slowly in first gear is uncomfortably jerky. All the backlash is between the output splines of the bevel box and the rear wheel. I thought the same as you, that the bevel box was failing, but no. You could check that backlash again with the rear wheel off to see if yours is the same.. See also https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20324

I tried installing the rear wheel after applying mould release spray and aluminised epoxy to the spline. After the epoxy cured, I greased the spline, refitted the wheel, and rode the bike. Much better, but a very temporary solution. It proved to me that the only fix is to replace the cush drive spline plate, and the crown wheel & pinion set. Expensive. Actually I bought a spline plate from Moto International (before they closed) and a 2nd hand low km bevel box from eBay Italy. How will I slow the spline from wearing again? Use a good layer of spline grease like Staburags NBU 30 PTM on it.

I have already drilled the cush drive rubbers, and removed half the rubber pucks, to make the drive cushier. That is an idea from the Guzzi expert Greg Field, and I think it will prolong the life of all the splines from the clutch all the way back.

[BLIGHT]

 

....Lately I have noticed a lot of driveline lash that seems to be getting more pronounced...on-off throttle just seems really sloppy in that feeling of transition. I did a quick test to check for bevel gear lash, and posted a short video: https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmTfuaAAK3HM7Rin1mBhG1H0o2Vk

Cheers, BLIGHT

Hello Blight,

My bike is exactly the same as your video. It is bad enough that riding slowly in first gear is uncomfortably jerky. All the backlash is between the output splines of the bevel box and the rear wheel. I thought the same as you, that the bevel box was failing, but no. You could check that backlash again with the rear wheel off to see if yours is the same.. See also https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=20324

I tried installing the rear wheel after applying mould release spray and aluminised epoxy to the spline. After the epoxy cured, I greased the spline, refitted the wheel, and rode the bike. Much better, but a very temporary solution. It proved to me that the only fix is to replace the cush drive spline plate, and the crown wheel & pinion set. Expensive. Actually I bought a spline plate from Moto International (before they closed) and a 2nd hand low km bevel box from eBay Italy. How will I slow the spline from wearing again? Use a good layer of spline grease like Staburags NBU 30 PTM on it.

I have already drilled the cush drive rubbers, and removed half the rubber pucks, to make the drive cushier. That is an idea from the Guzzi expert Greg Field, and I think it will prolong the life of all the splines from the clutch all the way back.

Thanks for the input Marty! Much appreciated.... I just went out and checked the rotational 'slop' with the bike in 1st gear, and the rear wheel jacked clear of the ground. At the sidewall edge to the tread, It's about 2" of curvalinear rotation stop to stop. I have a feeling most of that play is in the transmission, especially with the third shaft in the V11. Only seems a fraction of that is in the actual driveshaft and ring-gear/pinion play. I have another short video of the slack measurement and turning the wheel, but it's pretty boring.... didn't post it.

 

I also held the rear yoke stationary and moved the rear wheel to see if there was any slop in the hub drive spline, and could feel none, just the same play between pinion and ring gear as measured in my little video from yesterday.

 

Still, this weekend I'm gonna remove the rear wheel and poke around, and inspect & lube the spline, check rubber cushions, and check wheel bearings.

 

Also, drain the final-drive gear oil and replace, checking for larger pieces of metal on the magnetic drain-plug.

 

While I'm at it I'm going to grease up the drive shaft zerks and call it done.

 

Just go and ride it and try to be smoother with throttle transitions....one idea someone had in one of the threads was a 1/3 turn throttle.

 

Standard (or mine is anyway) a 1/4 turn, which could make for jerky low-speed riding without a steady hand.

 

Mine almost 'bounces' like when you roll on/off the gas, which makes me think it's rubber related, i.e. cush drives?? Or torque rod rubbers?

 

It's all a mystery at this point... I'll know more hopefully on Saturday.

 

Cheer, and thanks for your help.

 

BLIGHT

[BLIGHT]

Hey guys, well I drained the rear-drive oil today.

 

Wasn't much of it from what I was expecting, but it looked clean and free of particulates, but it had under 2000 miles on it.

 

Not sure what the previous owner used, but he was an older guy and was meticulous with this motorcycle maintenance.

 

Anyway, I replaced the old gear oil with Lucas (my favorite) 75W-90 rear end oil, synthetic.

 

I use it in all of my other shaft drive bikes and transmissions, and they all seem happy with no leaks, noises or poor shifting.

 

Drained and refilled up to the level port where it started to dribble, and stopped fill, and screwed the side plug back in.

 

Here are the specs on the gear oil I use in my Harley primary and trans, and other shaft drive rear ends:

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers, BLIGHT

 

 

 

[BLIGHT]

Upon inspection, no discernible play or visible wear in the final spline drive to the rear wheel hub.

 

Even the rubber cush-drives looked fine, no signs of visible deterioration in 16 yrs!

 

So, it seems the combined driveline lash is between:

 

1) Lash between pinion and ring gear

 

2) Driveshaft u-joints and splined section in shaft

 

3) Three shafts in the (excellent) 6 speed transmission

 

4) Flex in the torque-rod rubbers between frame and final drive under accel & decel

 

5) Final splined drive to rear wheel Cush Drives

 

IMO, the transmission shafts & gears account for majority of the play... not much can be done about that!

 

You can carefully adjust your application of clutch, throttle, and shift timing to reduce the jerky-lunging effect if you are mindful of the overall slack, and it's a lot more enjoyable ride!

 

I tried riding it that way last time out, and I could reduce the sensation considerably.

 

Cheers,

 

BLIGHT

[GuzziMoto]

Upon inspection, no discernible play or visible wear in the final spline drive to the rear wheel hub.

 

Even the rubber cush-drives looked fine, no signs of visible deterioration in 16 yrs!

 

So, it seems the combined driveline lash is between:

 

1) Lash between pinion and ring gear

 

2) Driveshaft u-joints and splined section in shaft

 

3) Three shafts in the (excellent) 6 speed transmission

 

4) Flex in the torque-rod rubbers between frame and final drive under accel & decel

 

5) Final splined drive to rear wheel Cush Drives

 

IMO, the transmission shafts & gears account for majority of the play... not much can be done about that!

 

You can carefully adjust your application of clutch, throttle, and shift timing to reduce the jerky-lunging effect if you are mindful of the overall slack, and it's a lot more enjoyable ride!

 

I tried riding it that way last time out, and I could reduce the sensation considerably.

 

Cheers,

 

BLIGHT

You may have already done this, but standard Guzzi set up is to run the absolute minimum of throttle cable slack. It helps control the throttle better and that removes some of the herky jerky behavior.

[BLIGHT]

 

Upon inspection, no discernible play or visible wear in the final spline drive to the rear wheel hub.

 

Even the rubber cush-drives looked fine, no signs of visible deterioration in 16 yrs!

 

So, it seems the combined driveline lash is between:

 

1) Lash between pinion and ring gear

 

2) Driveshaft u-joints and splined section in shaft

 

3) Three shafts in the (excellent) 6 speed transmission

 

4) Flex in the torque-rod rubbers between frame and final drive under accel & decel

 

5) Final splined drive to rear wheel Cush Drives

 

IMO, the transmission shafts & gears account for majority of the play... not much can be done about that!

 

You can carefully adjust your application of clutch, throttle, and shift timing to reduce the jerky-lunging effect if you are mindful of the overall slack, and it's a lot more enjoyable ride!

 

I tried riding it that way last time out, and I could reduce the sensation considerably.

 

Cheers,

 

BLIGHT

You may have already done this, but standard Guzzi set up is to run the absolute minimum of throttle cable slack. It helps control the throttle better and that removes some of the herky jerky behavior.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look at it. One thing I read somewhere was that the V11 injection is shut down 100% on closed throttle for max engine braking and to virtually eliminate backfire/popping on decel. Once the revs reach about 1200 rpm or so, the idle speed injection rate kicks in about when you pull in the clutch to come to a stop. You can actually feel it if you try. Other bikes give you a little gas on decel.... like my VFR, it burbles and pops sometimes...where the Guzzi feels like you hit the kill switch. Like a Jake-Brake on a semi truck! It makes as much noise on decel (I used to hear it called 'back-rapp') as it does under half-throttle...cool. I had to put my db killers back into my canisters... a bit too loud!

 

Anyway, this shut-down on closed throttle makes SMOOOTH slow-speed riding in and around that rpm range (i.e. stop & go) a little harder than on some of my other bikes. Just have to be deliberate with smooth clutch slip or disengagement, throttle application and chop, etc. I am in California, in a tourist area so traffic on 2 lane double-yellow stripe roads mean a fair amount of this type of riding. Passing on double yellow is necessary sometimes (like when you're behind a tractor) but I try to avoid it due to heavy fines if caught. They have been slowly getting rid of 'passing' lanes around here...  they are all pretty much gone.

 

Cheers,

BLIGHT

[GuzziMoto]

Yeah, even when it is right it can be a bit abrupt.

Way back when, the wife and I used to do BattlTrax (basically AutoCross for motorcycles). The wife was running the course fast, and going into a tight turn she closed the throttle a little too hard. The back end of the bike started to come around, then it caught and highsided her. It was nasty looking, she got some decent height. But she walked away. Even rode the bike home.

So, yeah, it can be a bit abrupt. Even with everything right. Part of that is being a big twin, part is the shaft drive, and part is the fuel injection mapping. Sometimes you just need to feather the clutch.

[BLIGHT]

Yeah, even when it is right it can be a bit abrupt.

Way back when, the wife and I used to do BattlTrax (basically AutoCross for motorcycles). The wife was running the course fast, and going into a tight turn she closed the throttle a little too hard. The back end of the bike started to come around, then it caught and highsided her. It was nasty looking, she got some decent height. But she walked away. Even rode the bike home.

So, yeah, it can be a bit abrupt. Even with everything right. Part of that is being a big twin, part is the shaft drive, and part is the fuel injection mapping. Sometimes you just need to feather the clutch.

Good point...man, so sorry that happened to her! Crap!

I have noticed a lot of wear on the tread center with the V11 than my other bikes... even some with way more hp! 

Probably some too due to deceleration on the center going into the corner, and then acceleration out on the straights.

I hardly use the rear brake except for lightly trailing it into a corner to set the rear end on decel.

I bet with all the engine compression braking on decel, there is a lotta raggity wear on the tire from the lumpy engine 'tugs'.

BLIGHT