2008 Norge Eating Fuses

[JRD]

I posted over on the "wildgoose chase forum"  but I thought I would check here also.  The previous and original owner of my new to me '08 Norge with 10,500 miles was very patient and went over everything on the bike including pointing out that he had installed an MPH Startus Interruptus fused,(15amp), pig-tail as a preventive measure after reading that many of the newer bikes suffer electrical problems.  The bike ran great on the ride home and never indicated any problems re-starting during my 4 gas stops.

  Recently it has begun blowing the fuse in the pig-tail.  I turn the ignition "on", wait for the needles and gauges to reset, then almost immediately after I hit the starter button the 15 amp fuse in the pig-tail blows. When I replace the blown fuse the bike immediately starts and runs fine.  When I return home I turn the ignition off and restart the bike 6 or 7 times without a problem.

 

I removed and cleaned all the cable ends and battery terminals as well as inspecting the connections at the solenoid and starter which appear to be like brand new with no signs of corrosion or damage. The bike was always stored indoors out of the weather.

 

Checking the Odessey battery I get 13V with ignition off, 12.8 with ignition "on", and 10.8 when I hit the starter button.  Down at the starter I get 12.7 with the ignition on, and 10.6-7 when I hit the starter.

 

The pig-tail consists of two plugs, one male end that plugs into harness plug previously occupied by the starter relay,  one female which the relay is now plugged into, and four heavier gauge wires, 12ga.  red, black, blue and a fused orange that connects directly to the battery (+) terminal on one end, and entering the  female plug on the other end.  The orange wire with the 15 amp fuse is the fuse that occasionally blows.  What concerns me is the 16-18ga wires in the starting circuit from the pig-tail down to the starter solenoid as well as the main harness.  It seems rather light for the sudden load placed on it when the ignition circuit is opened.  

 

At the advice of a friend I have removed the pig-tail and installed the relay in its original position to see if that alleviates the problem.  Most frustrating is this problem is inconsistent.  It does not do this every time I ride or start the bike.  Looking for suggestions here. Thanks in advance.

 

Jerry 

 

 

[Scud]

I recently solved an intermittent electrical problem that was caused by loose connections in the relay base. If any relay is loose or wobbly, you could pinch the relay pins a bit - or get access to the base itself to try to tighten it up. My LeMans has been starting really well since that simple fix.

[JRD]

EYUP!!!  Having been thoroughly been indoctrinated into the strange often dark times of Guzzi ownership with my LeMans, I tried to do a systematic check of all the things in the starter circuit that could go wrong.  The only thing I havent checked and cleaned so far is the ignition switch.

 

Just did more research on the W/G Forum and some folks recommend a 20 amp fuse in the starter circuit in place of the 15amp that keeps popping. Im going to try without that pig-tail for a few and see how it works out.  If I have starter problems again I'll try the pig-tail with a 20amp fuse next.  

[Kiwi_Roy]

Jerry,

         "Startus Interuptus" is caused by too much Voltage drop in the solenoid circuit, The MPH fix cures that by bypassing the ignition switch, other owners simply snip the yellow wire going to pin 3 of the relay and splice a new hot to the relay end.

I have a theory the factory don't even know about "SI" they only work on bikes with pristine components and their starter diagram bears no resemblance to reality.

The VII ignition switch is really easy to remove and clean I don't know about the Norge

 

The early VIIs like my 2001 never suffered because the start relay was wired from a dedicated fuse

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif

Later VIIs suffer like all modern Guzzis from silly wiring.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_V11_Sport_Catalytic.gif

 

Trace the wire from terminal 30 of the start relay back to the battery, you will see the difference

Early bikes will still start with switches measuring 10 - 20 Ohms because the heavy current by-passes the switch.

[JRD]

At Wayne's suggestion I replaced the 15 amp fuse on the MPH S/I Fix with a 20 amp and will try that for awhile.  If that blows I plan removing the starter again and having the solenoid checked out thinking there may be some corrosion on the contacts from age/lack of use.  Thanks so much for your help.

 

 

Jerry   

[JRD]

Well its been several months so I thought I would update this post.  As stated above I replaced the 15 amp fuse with a 20 amp and the problem persisted with and without the pigtail installed.  Next step was remove the starter and inspect the internals of the solenoid.  Spotless and no indication of corrosion inside or on any of the terminal ends.  OK, what is consistent on this bike and others that have reported the same problem?  The skinny yellow/orange thin wire from the starter relay to the starter solenoid and also, the LI starter relay.

Called MG International and learned they had been having a run on these relays recently.  Hmmmmm.  Ordered new relays.  Two days later (kudos MGI) received two Mitsubishi relays in the mail.  While waiting for the new relays I replaced the skinny 18-20 ga. wire from the starter relay to the stater solenoid with a heavier 14 ga. wire.  I even went back to the 15 amp fuse just to be safe.

Well I am happy to report that after 4,500 miles in a 22 day trip from Florida to Nova Scotia, Canada and back, I DID NOT HAVE ONE SINGLE STARTER ISSUE!!!!!!!  During the trip the 2009 Norge also on the trip began blowing the starter fuse.  Replaced the relay to solenoid wire and used my spare new relay and he had no further issues either. 

Conclusion, I think the "startus interruptus" problem was caused by faulty relays, the wrong wire gauge or a combination of the two.  Anyway, thanks so much to Wayne and everyone else who contributed information on this issue.  

[Chuck]

Thanks for the update.

[czakky]

Nice! How about some pics?

[Kiwi_Roy]

JRD, thanks for the feedback

It's interesting you should find it necessary to increase the wire size but I can see why.

I calculated that the Valeo starter solenoid should draw 50 Amps inrush at 12 Volts but in fact it's draws well under 40

Assuming you have the Startus Interuptus fix this would be due to the wire gauge and resistance in the relay and base along with the fuse resistance.

 

I don't have figures for 18 gauge but between 14 and 16 it's about half.

3 feet of #16 would drop around 0.5 V at 40 Amps

3 feet of #14 would drop around 0.36 V at 40 Amps

# 18 is probably closer to 1 Volt

 

Any Guzzi after 2002 comes out of the factory with the Start relay wired through the ignition switch (including the 2008 Norge), this in my opinion is crazy, I wonder how much this has hurt Guzzi in lost repeat sales over the years.

 

 

I still maintain the factory don't have a clue as to how the starter works.

With the fix the inrush current will be more like 40 Amps so a 20 Amp fuse is appropriate.

[JRD]

What really puzzled me was the fact that mine started eating fuses even with the MPH S/I pigtail installed.  Removed the pigtail and it popped the fuse. Installed the 20 amp fuse and that seemed to cure it for several days until the ambient air temps here in Florida got into the high 80's.  Re-installed the pigtail with the 20 amp fuse and STILL popped the fuse.  Removed and inspected the starter solenoid and connections, all like brand new.  Since the starter motor was off allowing easier access, I decided to replace the orange/yellow wire up to the relay with the heavier gauge wire. Re-installing the MPH S/I pigtail, replacing that one wire and installing the new relay has cured the problem so far.

 

My friends '09 Norge did not have the MPH S/I pigtail so I (we) ran two new wires.  One from the battery directly to the relay, and the second from the relay down to the solenoid and that seems to have cured his problems also.  Temps on the ride ranged from the low 40's to the 90's with only six days without rain so I am confident we have cured the problem.

 

My main fear was stalling the bike at and intersection, not being able to restart it and getting run over from behind.  Cant thank you guys enough for your help and guidance.

 

Jerry   

[Kiwi_Roy]

When you press start it puts 12 Volts on both coils, this passes 10 Amps through one but 30-40 Amps through the other.
When the main contacts close it puts 12 Volt on the other end of the heavy current coil so it drops to zero Amps.

If the main contacts don't close or loose main lead the 15 A fuse will pop in about 1/2 second, a 20 A will last slightly longer. An oxidized battery terminal would also cause the fuse to blow.

 

By improving the wiring you increase the current.

 

There's a lot going on in that innocent looking solenoid.

[Goofman]

Aha!  Been running into a suspiciously similar problem on my '08 1200 Sport.  I shall now proceed with new relays and the heavier gauge wire fix.  Viva la V11 Forum!

[Chuck]

 

 

Viva la V11 Forum!

Gotta love it..

[JRD]

One final update. I had shoulder surgery back in January at which time they installed all kinds of pinS, anchors and 150 lbs.test string. Ordered me to stay off bikes for 6-8 months. During a fit of depression I listed the bike over on the Wildguzzi Forum. Two weeks later a guy flies down from Illinois, buys the bike and rides it back. Since then he as ridden it out West and is in San Diego now. Not one problem with the starting issue!

As a side note. While on our ride to Canada last year the other Norge started eating fuses. Not having another Startus Interruptus pigtail, I simply ran the heavier gauge wire from the white plug down to the starter solenoid and replaced his relay with a new spare I brought along. Brian has not had any more problems either. Not sure if it was just the too small gauge wire or cheap relay but by replacing both seems to have cured the problem.

[Goofman]

MY goodness, how time flies when you're riding.  Just realized I had not followed up with my '08 Sport fuse issues.  I, too, replaced ALL three of my relays with Matsushita's from MG Cycles, and replaced the silly 18 gauge solenoid wire with 14 gauge.  4,000 miles since, no issues.  Period.  Thanks again for sharing your experience and knowledge!