Trail braking

[Lucky Phil]

Thanks all.

 

As the weather improves and I can get on the roads again, I'm looking forward to refining my cornering skills. This gives me some techniques to try.

 

Working from memory now, I have been braking in a straight line. Then at the same time, releasing the brake, turning in & getting on the throttle to have a constant speed to the apex. Rolling on the throttle from then.

 

I have found that holding the brake on after turning in, makes the steering very heavy & reluctant to turn in.

 

Under the chapter 'Mistakes I have made', I have learned that squeezing the front brake too much in the corner, will stand the bike up, yet using the rear brake doesn't.

 

Advice ?

 

What books, Youtube or other sources do you go to for riding techniques ?

Yes all modern sports bikes will stand up when you apply the brakes whilst turning into a corner, some really badly. This is what catches out a lot of riders when they over cook it going in, grab a handfull of front brake and the bike immediatly tries to stand up and run wide. Then they panic and preservation takes over and they apply more front brake which compounds the issue usually until it washes out or they run out of road or hit something comming the other way.

Yes, as I said the rear will do the opposite due to mainly to the large rear tire on modern bikes compaired to the front. Dragging the rear brake a little increases the slip angle of the rear tire and helps it turn. Because the rear tire is a lot wider as the bike leans over the rear contact patch moves laterally more than the front. This means the rear is always trying to steer the bike wide to an extent. Its why when you fit a larger rear tire the bike will steer slower and not be quite as agile. Its a tradeoff you accept and get used to for the extra grip. When you drag the rear brake a little mid corner it helps to negate this effect and tightens the line somewhat.

You may notice some modern racers are using a thumb rear brake now ( as opposed to Mick Doohan that first used one years ago because of injury) so they can use the technique on R/H corners when they have the balls of their feet up on the pegs and they cant reach the rear brake pedal.

 

Ciao 

[stewgnu]

Something that's been on my mind for a while, and maybe i'm imagining it??: I've been wondering if the suspension alters slightly from quite hard when cold to when a few miles have gone by- seems to loosen up, poss due to warming up?? Anyone else notice this and do people take this into account when setting sag and compression etc?

[Lucky Phil]

Something that's been on my mind for a while, and maybe i'm imagining it??: I've been wondering if the suspension alters slightly from quite hard when cold to when a few miles have gone by- seems to loosen up, poss due to warming up?? Anyone else notice this and do people take this into account when setting sag and compression etc?

Yes, suspension does warm up and the settings are effected slightly. In the top shelf units not so much as the design of the bleed orofice and needles in the low speed circuit is compensate to a degree. If you want it set right then yes take the bike out and put a few miles on it before set up.

 

Ciao   

[nobleswood]

That sheds some light on why when I was setting the suspension sag on my bike it still ended up too hard.

 

My neighbor & I worked over winter taking measurements & adjusting settings. The barn was cold & the heat was on only enough for us not to freeze. The bike wasn't on the road for another couple of months.

 

Over on WildGuzzi there is a parallel thread about Trailbraking. There is a split between those who believe only the front brake should be used and those who use both.

 

Comments ?

 

Where is Rough Edge Racing ? Chuck you've been riding for 40 years or so, according to the Revzilla article, how do you ride corners ?

[Chuck]

 

 

Chuck you've been riding for 40 years or so, according to the Revzilla article, how do you ride corners ? 

Never believe what you read on the internet. He spelled my name wrong, and it is over 50 years. 

I don't brake into the apex. Why? Because the speed limit is 55 in most canyon roads. I try not to break the speed limit by much. I normally come out of the corner accelerating (of course) and slow down on the straights.   Flick it into the next corner, and add throttle all the way through the corner. It's fun, and keeps the pace at (mostly) legal speeds. 

[nobleswood]

I don't brake into the apex. Why? Because the speed limit is 55 in most canyon roads. I try not to break the speed limit by much. I normally come out of the corner accelerating (of course) and slow down on the straights.   Flick it into the next corner, and add throttle all the way through the corner. It's fun, and keeps the pace at (mostly) legal speeds.

 

Firstly; next Ohio rally I'll point you in the direction of some of Ohio's finest riding roads.

Then walk me through this, you accelerate out of the corner, slow down on the straight & use the engine braking into the next corner ? Turning in & then start to open the throttle ?

[bbolesaz]

Corner Strafing !

[stewgnu]

Are we talking unexpected braking here? Like 'arse- this corner is kinda tight' braking? I'm not sure why anyone would trail-brake in normal conditions. Doesn't everyone just brake, turn and accelerate?

I went out today especially to mither the brakes in corners: I found the front is fine for slowing when canted over unless you grab it and fixate on the edge of the road- which one might do if taken unawares. The rear seemed kinda unnecessarily fussy, and occupied valuable brain, unless I expected to be going too fast. In which case i thought "i am going faster than i can anticipate.” So why do that?

[LowRyter]

Stew, the trail brake proponents suggest that you do it as a matter of habit to get proficient and smooth.  Like, Chuck mentioned most folks aren't traveling fast enough on sweeping highway curves to try it.  

 

If you don't have a lot of curvy mountain  roads you can get  real world feel for it around intersection corners.  When you brake to go around a corner, keep lightly on the brake and stay smooth until you apex it and hit the gas instead of coasting and hitting the gas.  

[Chuck]

 

 

Then walk me through this, you accelerate out of the corner, slow down on the straight & use the engine braking into the next corner ? 

To stay at relatively legal speeds, I'm not accelerating in the straights. Any squid can do that..   Running about 55-65, and taking the corner without slowing down unless it's *really* a 30 mph corner, not just marked 30. As soon as you flick it into the corner, just relax, and add throttle all the way through the corner. Simple. That keeps the machine stable, and as long as you don't mess with it in this condition,   it will stay in that angle of bank forever.

Todd Egan taught me this several years ago. He said the trick to going fast is not to slow down. (!) I was doing everything wrong. After all I'm from the midwest and never had a chance to practice.. but I was charging into corners, getting on the brakes too hard and upsetting the chassis. He said to get about 15 feet behind him and "don't touch the brakes.. you won't need them.. just stay the same distance from me." 

It was a real eye opener. We proceeded to go faster on canyon roads than I'd ever gone in my life. After I learned to relax pressure on the bars and let the motorcycle do it's thing.. it *wants* to be stable, after all.. I could ride in the canyons all day and not be tired. When I first started going out there, I'd be worn out after an hour or so. 

Understand what I'm trying to say?

I am *not* saying trail braking is of no value at all, just that for the speeds I ride.. I seldom use the brakes. Just flick it into the corner, keep weight off the bars, and add throttle all the way through the corner. If that means that I'm over the speed limit coming out, yes.. I slow down on the straights. We're *not* racing, after all.

[Scud]

Chuck - I try to ride very much like you described. The constant speed game is fun - and generates less wear. In fact, that's how I enjoy riding behind one of my Harley buddies. I let him get away in th straights and catch him in the curves. All that said, I still trail brake on steep downhill twisties.  Ride smooth... ride all day.

[The Monkey]

I do not ride behind Harleys, 

It mustn't happen. Certainly not on an Italian Stallion.

I refuse to do it even when I ride a Harley. Its more fun to pass between them.

 

Trail Braking is not unexpected.....

the Spanish Inquisition was though

[Scud]

I do not ride behind Harleys, 

It mustn't happen. 

 

It's only when it's my friend. He's still kind of a new rider and he appreciates it if I give him a few pointers. I keep trying to give him the "get a Moto Guzzi" pointer... I mean... he could sell the Harley and pick up a few nice cruiser-style Guzzis, and still have some cash left.

[nobleswood]

Thanks all.

[GuzziMoto]

I guess I am in the minority, I don't do much trail braking on my Guzzi's. They really do better when cornering on the throttle. In fact, I use the throttle much more than the brakes when riding my Guzzi's fast. Just don't slow down as much, use the cornering ability of the bike. Like running the "pace", but with throttle.

Some bikes work well with trail braking, but my Guzzi's seem to do better with braking as straight as possible then feeding in the power as I feed in the lean. The wife's Ducati Monster on the other hand......